K: So, lately I’ve been thinking about the difference of being agendered in the United States versus being agendered in Japan. And also (coughs) excuse me, also I’ve been thinking about the differences in the way people describe their identifiers and their adjectives.

C: And we’re talking in English here in both cases or…

K: Yeah. In English because, in Japanese, I’m not gendered at all.

C: Yeah just language-wise it’s unusual. There are certain words that are gendered, but for the most part words are not.

K: Yeah, and it would be really rude to say she or her or he or him.

C: Yes.

K: “That man” is considered really, really rude in Japanese.

C: It is, and the general “she” and “he”

K: Unless you’re asking, “who is that person over there?”

C: But “who’s that person”

K: You usually use the word “person” – “hito”

C: Yeah. Yeah.

K: Ano hito ha

C: Because the words for he and she are the same as the words for boyfriend and girlfriend

K: Yeah.

C: So, you have to know from context what’s meant.

K: Yeah.

C: Which implies to me that the only person worth talking about he or she are your boyfriend or girlfriend.

K: And I feel the same way. There’s a lot of confusion sometimes about how I identify because you call me she/her/hers, and you’re very gendered in that I’m female and you’re male. And I think that has to do with your understanding of your own identification – not having anything to do with my identification.

C: Well, too, I think it’s just like… the way that English works, I have… I have to refer to you in some way if I’m talking with somebody else. When you and I are talking, your pronouns are never… important. The pronouns are… mine.

K: Yeah.

C: Like, that’s the pronoun: mine. My best friend. My honey. My wife. My love. Like, all those. If I’m talking to somebody else, then I say Kisstopher. To say it over and over – that’s weird in English in a way that it doesn’t in Japanese.

K: Mm. And I think because I’m pansexual and… I’ve had partners who… who didn’t want their pronouns used when I was talking about them, I would say… “my lover” “my partner” – gender neutral phrase.

C: Right.

K: And not use any pronouns when talking about them.

C: I’ve noticed that’s more common when I’m talking with Australians – because I talk with a lot of Australians now – because I work with a lot of Australians.

K: Mhm.

C: and, like, everybody who moves to Australia seems to just say “my partner” if they mean “partner.” But when they’re talking about somebody else, they would still use he or she.

K: So… the reason I was thinking about this is because I’ve been talking more about being agender. Agendered. And I’ve noticed that it’s making you feel a little bit… uncomfortable. And it’s making you weird in our dynamic in that it’s – I told you years and years ago that you can use whatever pronouns you want for me, so I want to talk a little bit about what being agendered means to me. And… here’s the thing: no group of people are a monolith. Everybody’s an individual, and so… ask individual people – if you ask someone “what’s your pronouns” and they’re like “I don’t have any” – get into it. Talk to them about it in a positive way – not in a get into it and fight way. And just ask them how they identify and their self-concept because my self-concept is “I’m Kisstopher”

C: Mhm.

K: I’m me. And… that – I don’t really think of myself as she or he, but I’m comfortable being called she or he because I know that America is a gendered, pronoun-based culture. And there were times that I was a drag king, there were times I was a drag queen, there were times I just did drag and… that was a lot of… messing about with gender because I really like the idea of the Victor/Victoria of it all. So, if you haven’t seen Victor/Victoria, go check it out. Google it. (laughs)

C: So, that’s interesting because it makes me think about a non-pronoun-related thing that you liked when we started dating. You still like it. But we play games, and, like, Yahtzee I would keep score.

K: Mhm.

C: And I would label – I labeled M and Not-M.

K: Yeah.

C: And NM.

K: Yeah.

C: And you said, “what’s that?” And I said, “it’s me and not-me.”

K: Yes. I loved that.

C: You were like “that’s perfect.”

K: Yeah. It is. (laughs)

C: Because I don’t think of myself as “Chad” – I think of myself as “me.”

K: Yes.

C: Like, Chad is the name that other people call me – that I acknowledge as my name – but I’ve never been particularly fond of it. I’ve grown used to it.

K: Yeah.

C: But it doesn’t feel like me. It just feels like the way that other people refer to me.

K: So, I think that a lot of the way that we talk about gender, probably, is based on… for you, it’s based on expediting conversation.

C: It is, yeah. That’s why I – I think when you talk about being agender, I think “well, if you’re pronoun indifferent, why don’t you just use she/her because that means you don’t have to have the conversations where you try to explain it?” Just, boom, done. For me. And I’ve been stern – I feel like “well that doesn’t honor your experience and your desires.” And that’s why things have gotten a little bit weirder for me is because I’m like – I’m not trying to like… dictate what you should do. Just, to me, the idea of going out every day and fighting over my pronouns doesn’t… seem like a productive use of my time. But I see that it affects other people. I see that it affects, in particular, trans people.

K: Mhm.

C: I still, sometimes, struggle to see how it would affect somebody who is pronoun indifferent to just adopt the easy pronoun.

K: But I’m not pronoun indifferent. I’m agendered. I don’t have… I don’t recognize she/her/hers, they/them/theirs, he/him/his. I think that… everybody – I like the possessives like yours and mine.

C: Yeah.

K: I like those. And I use I, but… I/me, that’s – those are my pronouns: I/me.

C: Mhm.

K: I/me/you… mine… yours. And, so, before I had Rasta… I was a lot thinner, and my breasts were a lot smaller. And… basically, I could go through the world as gender confusing.

C: (laughs)

K: And my generation, we called it gender-fucked

C: Mhm.

K: Or genderqueer. And that’s what we called it back then. I’m talking like 30 years ago. And, so, I would go out, and I would… fight for the right for people to be – to own their pronouns and identify their pronouns. So, this myth that the non-binary has just existed – I think, you know, look at art from any era. You will find that there was somebody who was playing with gender or gender non-conformity.

C: Yeah. Absolutely.

K: So, for me, I used to just – people did not use pronouns when they talked about me.

C: Interesting. Yeah, I think if you look at like religion – not Christianity so much which tends to have very fixed notions – but I know in Hinduism because we had a lot of Hindu friends when were in the U.S., there are a lot of deities that either have no gender or switch gender fluidly. Just move through it. So, I think, in art, at least, there’s always been a sense of gender being an unfixed notion.

K: Yeah. And… when I got pregnant with Rasta, I still was agendered. I’m still agendered – when I gave birth I was gendered. I’ll be agendered the rest of my life. But I kind of… lost the stomach for the fight.

C: Mhm.

K: and the reason I lost the stomach for the fight is because I was impacting his experience, and he’s always identified as he/him/his, and he’s always identified as boy. And… I didn’t start that. Like, his nickname is “the boy.”

C: Yeah.

K: I didn’t start that. Just one day he came up to me and he told me, “I’m the boy.” And I was like, “okay.” “No, I’m a boy.” I was like “okay, I heard you.”

C: Mhm.

K: “Boy.” And, so, I think that this believe that you can’t raise children gender-neutral because it’ll confuse them – Rasta was raised gender-neutral. I know that he was assigned male at birth, but when he was a baby, I didn’t use pronouns. I called him the spud, the pod – I had a bunch of love names that I call him.

C: Yeah.

K: And the main thing that I called him was pasta bowl.

C: Mhm.

K: And pasta – food items. And… so… he decided that he was boy and the boy. The ONLY boy in the world.

C: (laughs)

K: For me. He decided that around 3 or 4.

C: Mhm.

K: And it – he didn’t stop playing with dolls, and he didn’t stop doing all of the creative things that he was into, and his interests didn’t really change. So… for me, I felt like there’s no harm in respecting – because I’ve always respected his personhood, agency, and autonomy.

C: Right.

K: And… you and I met when he was 5. And… by then, he was like boy, girl, boy, girl. Mom’s a girl. Mom’s a she. And I was like “well, I like being mom.”

C: Mhm.

K: I don’t wanna be dad. I like mom, and I’ve always wanted to be mom, and I taught him to call me mom.

C: I have some trans men friends who are still mom.

K: Yeah. So do I. And… I also like wife.

C: Mhm.

K: So, for me, it was like eh… I just kinda… was like “does this really matter to me?” And then when I met you, you were like… “I identify as heterosexual, and therefore I need you to keep your body as what I – how I understand a woman’s body to look like.” And this isn’t transphobia. This isn’t anything negative to anyone, and I want to create a safe space for you because I don’t want people to hate on you and say “well trans women are women.” Absolutely. But we can say “these are the things that I don’t want you to change in your current” – “what I define as being heterosexual.”

So, I think we kind of need to say how you define heterosexual, how you define… a cis woman’s body. I don’t really know how it works for you, I guess. (laughs) Because I don’t know: am I a cis woman to you? I don’t know what I am to you. I just know I’m your wife.

C: Yeah, and I think that’s the issue. I think it’s that you’re Kisstopher – so, for me maybe because I’m autistic – for me, it’s always been more about the constancy once I have… been informed of something that it isn’t anything else.

K: Okay.

C: So… as far as who I found attractive, it’s… as far as I know, always been people who identified as female except for you – who identify as agendered.

K: Mhm.

C: But… I’m not sure that’s really true. Like, as far as people I’ve said “I would like to have sexy times with that person” it’s true.

K: Mhm.

C: But there have been men in my life that I’ve been very attracted to as far as having a relationship – as far as having a stable bond with them.

K: Yeah.

C: And… while I’m not interested in – in the sexy times – I don’t see other ways in which I’d be limited. So, when we talked about it – because in my mind, you’re a woman, and part of that was you being like “I birthed a child.” I’m like, “okay, in my mind that makes you a woman because you haven’t told me you’re a trans man.”

K: Mhm.

C: And… when I was assuming you’re a woman, you didn’t immediately correct me and say “no, I’m not. I’m agendered.” Then when I said I don’t want you doing anything to your body that’d make you not a woman, I wasn’t saying… like, eww gross – I was saying don’t destroy the constancy of my perception.

K: You said very specifically “I don’t really care whether or not you et a penis, but you can’t get balls.”

C: Yeah. I have traumatic experiences around them. I don’t find them sexually interesting. And we talked

K: And you were like “don’t get balls and don’t remove – I’d really like it if you don’t remove your breasts. But if you get breast cancer and they have to be removed, I will love you anyways, but please can you keep your breasts.”

C: Yeah, we did talk about that specifically

K: I was like “I like my breasts. I have no problem with my breasts.” I don’t have any body dysmorphia, so

C: And we talked about, specifically, that if it were a health issue, then… when you had them removed, that would be the new you for me, and I wouldn’t want you to change that.

K: Yeah.

C: You were like “so you wouldn’t want me to get implants to make them back up if I got them removed?” No.

K: Yeah.

C: Because that’s you. So, for me, I just – I like things to not change.

K: And I think that’s important to know when we’re talking about the context of us – is that you don’t like things to change. And, in the United States, for me, being she/her and allowing people to do that – it was, again like for you, it was an expedition. Because when I wasn’t allowing the she/her, and when I was challenging the gender norms, it was a daily struggle. And it was a daily conversation. And… I thought about what do I want for Rasta? And how easy do I want Rasta’s life to be? And, when I was with… all of the different people I’ve been with, I didn’t have them around Rasta because they weren’t long-term.

C:  Mhm.

K: But I have had Rasta around every type of gender on the spectrum, and all of that – just not my romantic partners. So, my non-romantic partners, Rasta’s been around everybody. Rasta’s very… open-minded and doesn’t have any gender biases. And he’s just like “I’m a cis gendered dude because I like he/him/his, and I don’t have body dysmorphia” is how he defines cis gendered. How do you define cis gendered?

C: I think that I am what society expects to see. And that makes me cis gendered.

K: Okay.

C: Like, society expects a man to… have a beard and a certain body type and all of that, and I have those, so…

K: But you also have boobs.

C: Yeah, I do.

K: (laughs)

C: Because I’m fat, but when I wasn’t fat, I didn’t have them.

K: Yeah. I like your big, round belly. I like all your fluffiness. So, I feel like you were assigned male at birth, and you’re fulfilling the assignment.

C: Yes. I think that’s a good way to put it: I will fulfill this assignment.

K: (laughs)

C: Because I haven’t felt particularly attached to the assignment of male. If somebody said, “I’m going to call you hey chick”, I’d be like that is a strange choice on their part.

K: No, you don’t like that at all. But you’re really, really picky about your nicknames because you also don’t like dude. So, I feel like chick and dude go together.

C: Okay, yeah chick and dude do go together.

K: You don’t like any sort of hipster slang.

C: Yeah, no, if somebody calls me dude, it’s annoying.

K: Yeah, and you don’t like surfer slang.

C: Right.

K: So, if you want to know what hipster slang is, google it. If you want to know what surfer slang is, google it. You’re really, really particular because, like, I can call you beautiful, but you don’t like being called pretty.

C: Right.

K: But you also don’t particularly like handsome. But you do like beautiful.

C: Yes.

K: And, like handsome, you kind of feel “mmmnn” – when I say you look very handsome today, you’re like “mmnnn.” Like, handsome is very specific: when you’re wearing your suits, you’re handsome. In your everyday life, you’re beautiful.

C: Thank you. And I think this is because

(laughter)

K: “Thank you for knowing and recognizing it.”

C: Yes. And I think this is because I don’t… and this is something that has always been the way between us: I don’t see beauty as being gendered.

K: Yeah, it’s not for me, either.

C: And it never has been, so when you’ve pointed out people, whatever their gender, and said “I think they’re really beautiful”, I look at them and I say yes or no about what I think.

K: Yeah.

C: And, so, I’ve known men my entire life – like, I should rephrase that – my entire life, I have known men that I’ve thought “wow, that’s a beautiful man.” There’s no… sexual attraction that goes with that. But there’s… no sexual attraction that goes with when I say, “wow, that’s a beautiful woman.”

K: Yeah.

C: Like, particular celebrities I think are gorgeous. They’re beautiful. But that doesn’t mean that I want anything to do with them because, for me, my

K: Because now you’re Kisstopher-sexual, and I’m Chad-sexual.

C: Yeah, exactly.

K: Because we’re monogamous, and we don’t plan to opening back up.

C: Exactly.

K: We plan on finishing out – finishing out our run monogamous (laughs)

C: Yeah.

K: So, our descriptions of gender have been specific to us. We’re not telling anyone else how to identify, and we’re not describing anyone else’s identification. So, just for the record: yes, a trans man is a man. A trans man that has not altered their body in any way is still a man. A trans man can give birth – some, not all. But all cis women can’t give birth, all gender-queer folks with a uterus can’t always give birth. So, anyone with a uterus and ovaries has the potential to give birth, and it has nothing to do with their gender for me. That’s how I see it, and that’s my view.

C: If they’re actually ovaries. There’s things like androgyne insensitivity syndrome.

K: Well, I said specifically if they have a uterus and ovaries, they can give birth.

C: Yeah.

K: And, technically they’ve done some really bad experiments on primates where they’ve shown that a male primate can actually… they put a fetus in a male primate, and he was – the male primate was actually able to carry – a primate that did not have a womb or ovaries. And then they did a cesarian section.

C: Yeah, I don’t…

K: I don’t see the point of that.

C: I don’t, particularly, either, but…

K: That’s why I’m like it’s messed up.

C: Yeah.

K: It’s completely wrong.

C: So, yeah, if I’m dressed up in my suit – which almost always indicates I’m going off to a business function where I’m going to be, like, Dr. Musick, the expert.

K: Yeah.

C: Then I feel like I am playing the masculine role, so, yes, I’m handsome.

K: Mm.

C: But if I’m not playing the masculine role, then why are you trying to put that on me?

K: Mm.

C: Why not just admit that I am a work of art?

K: You are a work of art. You are statuesque and gorgeous. I love it.

C: So, I think that we assign… gender to objects, too, sometimes. Like, you might say like “that’s a handsome table.”

K: (laughs) Yes, we do.

C: Or “that’s a beautiful table.” And, depending on the construction of it, different people will at different points shift to different genders for furniture.

K: So, I find all of this that we just did is the American construct. And being agendered in America.

C: Right.

K: I find being agendered in Japan almost never comes up. It almost never comes up.

C: Yeah.

K: So, like, at work it comes up because, when I have a client for the first time, I share my pronouns, I ask them theirs, and… pip, pip off we go on that. And some clients I haven’t asked their gender because they express their gender in the information that they give me, and… that’s fine, too, and I don’t always express my… lack of a gender to folks because, over the years, I just haven’t felt the need to fight for it. And I think, now, the reason why I’m being more vocal about it is because we have a platform.

C: Mhm.

K: And I think it’s important to use my platform responsibly. And we have a small platform, but it’s a platform nonetheless, and I want to make sure that we’re starting conversations. So, if we’ve said something that hurt you or upset you or confused you, reach out to us and let’s start a conversation. Don’t – don’t shut down.

C: I think that’s why I make a point of saying that I’m autistic on a somewhat regular basis. Is because just because I could pass for not… I feel like I would be letting other people down who can’t pass for not if I didn’t say, you know, my voice is with you, too.

K: Mm.

C: So, I think that you could pass for a cis woman by just not saying anything about your gender.

K: Yeah.

C: But there are other people who… psychologically or physically or whatever are not cis women or not cis men who… can use the moral support of having somebody who could pass say, “hey, I’m not, either.”

K: Yeah. Somebody in a place of privilege.

C: Yeah.

K: Because I acknowledge my privilege all of the time. So, I have an adult child who totally gets me being agendered, and I’m just mom to them – they never use pronouns when talking about me. Hardly ever. They use my name or mom or my mom. So, I guess “my” is the pronoun (laughs) that they use: possessive. We’re a very possessive family, and… when Rasta was in… elementary school – in public elementary before we moved him to private – I was very gendered, but then when he went to private school, I was agendered again.

C: Mhm.

K: So… I lived in the she/her world for – I lived in my assigned gender from about the time that Rasta was, I wanna say, about 3 to about 7 or 8. And then I converted back to being agendered, but we met in that window when I was using she and her, and I said, “for the most part, I don’t really use pronouns. And people don’t usually talk about me in front of me.”

C: Yeah, yeah.

K: And when they do, they tend to point at me because something about my name just jacks people up, and they’re afraid to say Kisstopher, and they tend to point at me if I’m in the room. You know. And they don’t say anything. So, that kind of reinforces it. And then… in Japan, it’s very – like, the Japanese have no problem saying my name.

C: Right.

K: and they say it just non-stop repeatedly because they don’t – it’s rude to say “she” if a person’s standing right next to you or “he.”

C: Right.

K: It’s an insult. You say “Musick-san” or “Kisstopher-san” – I prefer “Musick-san.”

C: And the way that Japanese speakers tend to… adopt English is to fill in the full name wherever it would be left out in Japanese, but it would be grammatically incorrect in English.

K: Yes.

C: So, in Japan, you would just say “Kisstopher” at the beginning of the conversation – like, we’re talking about Kisstopher – and then never mention your name or pronoun or anything again.

K: Yeah.

C: So, they tend to just say “okay, this sentence needs the reference back, so the topic is still Kisstopher or Kisstopher’s.” Rather than

K: Yeah, and I find that even native-level – Japanese nationals who have native-level of English speaking still confuse brother-in-law and sister-in-law.

C: Mhm.

K: And confuse she and him.

C: Yeah.

K: Like, the pronouns – they struggle a little bit with that. And… it doesn’t bother me.

C: Well, in the U.S., we – our friends who were Telegu speakers would often confuse gender.

K: Yeah.

C: They would often call Rasta she and her.

K: Yeah.

C: Which none of us

K: None of us cared, and at that point Rasta didn’t care. So, Rasta only cared for – about his gender – I want to say from, hmm, maybe around 3 to 5 or 6, and then like around 7 he felt so comfortable being who he was, and he just became Rasta. And that wasn’t any influence of mine for any of y’all that are going to think wicked thoughts. It’s just… Rasta’s personality. And he’s like “I’m he/him because English is a pronoun’ed language.”

C: Yeah.

K: “And I’m the boy because that’s been my nickname as long as I can remember.”

C: Mhm.

K: But he’s equally the boy as he is the pasta bowl.

C: Yes.

K: And I call him “pasta” for short because I’m lazy. Pasta bowl’s too long. Too many syllables. So, yeah.

C: Yeah, you’ve added an entire syllable there.

K: Yeah. (laughs) And, so, I think that this conversation is really scary for cis gendered folks to engage in because there’s this worry of causing harm, or there’s bias. And on your side of the street, it’s worry of causing harm: you don’t want to hurt anyone, and your idea. So, for me, when it comes to self-conceptualization, I don’t – I’m really fearless. This is how I’m defining myself: get over it. Get into it. Pick one, I don’t care. Like, get over it, get out, get into it. You have choices.

C: Yeah, I think, for me, if somebody said – like, somebody who had actual ability to do anything about it – said, “you’re not allowed to call yourself a cis gendered man” and wasn’t doing something weird like insisting you can only call yourself man because cis is an insult or anything like that. Just saying, “you’re not allowed to claim a gender.” It’d be like “okay.”

K: Yeah.

C: Because I don’t have a particular attachment to being a cis gendered man. But on the flip side of that, it doesn’t cause me any… harm. Or any confusion or any dysphoria or any injury.

K: Yeah.

C: And, so, I feel like I’m not trying to… co-opt anybody else’s story by saying “well, actually, I don’t really identify as a cis gendered man. I am non-binary” because I feel like that would just be for social reasons. And for social reasons, you know, I function as a cis gendered man.

K: Well, and too, there’s a lot of power in you identifying as a cis gendered man. And it’s power and privilege that you generously share with others. And I say generously because I’ve been the benefactor of that power and privilege quite often in our relationship, and it’s really nice to have a white, cis gendered male in my life – when I was in the United States – because that gave me validity. Now, that’s sick and fucked up and wrong.

C: Yeah. Yeah.

K: But I enjoyed it, and we talked about it early on, and you said, “you know… I don’t really care about pronouns, and I don’t really care about gender.” And I said, “but there is power in you identifying these ways.” And we talked about power politics, and we talked about persuasion politics and all of those, and, so, I feel like, for political reasons, you really embraced white, cis gendered, heterosexual male.

C: Yeah, I think the strength to which I embrace it is directly proportional to how much my interlocutor wants to… deny other people agency or autonomy or power. So, I find that if I’m talking with gender-queer folks that… I don’t feel the need to keep banging on I’m a cis gendered man.

K: Yeah.

C: Or doing masculine displays or different things like that. And I think most people will… know what I mean by that. Like, performative masculinity.

K: Yeah.

C: But, with

K: Which is different than masculine expression.

C: Right.

K: Like, if he was like “hey, I certify your masculine expression” that would be performative because masculine expression – if you say “this is a masculine expression” good enough for me.

C: Right.

K: And I know there’s going to be people who don’t agree with that statement, and that’s cool. You can get over it, get out, or get into it. Like, I really don’t care. I really don’t. Like, if you want to talk about it, we can talk about it. You know, if you need help understanding that.

C: Yeah, like when I was gay – not when I was gay, when I was young.

(laughter)

C: When I was young

K: Which was not a gay time in your life. It was miserable.

C: Yeah. The thing I wanted to be most was a ballet dancer.

K: Yeah.

C: And my parents were like, “well, you have asthma, and we can’t find any studios that wouldn’t flare up your asthma.” And now I realize they just didn’t want me dancing.

K: Yeah.

C: But other people were like, “you want to dance ballet? Are you gay?” Which is why the “when I was gay” came up.

K: Yup.

C: And they’re like, “are you a girl?” And then I was like, “no.” No, here’s the whole thing of it. Here’s the whole reason I wanted to dance ballet.

K: Baryshnikov.

C: Yes.

K: (laughs)

C: I saw Baryshnikov dance the nutcracker, and I said, “I want to be that.”

K: And that’s a specimen. Baryshnikov.

C: He’s like picking people up and throwing them around, and like

K: Yeah. Jumping high in the air. Clicking his heels as he does it.

C: “That’s what I want to be.” And, so, I think the whole like assigning a gender to a particular expression is always so nuanced and always so context specific. But I do tend to get more and more… so, this is my normal speaking voice – it’s a little bit lower because I’m having trouble breathing.

K: Chad’s having an asthma attack as we’re doing it. He’s not halting and hesitant. He can’t breathe.

C: Yeah.

K: Certain administrators – ugh – that just like – rawr. Certain administrative bodies in the United States – this is what someone sounds like when they can’t breathe.

C: Yes.

K: Just saying.

C: But if I’m talking with people who are… in my mind, bigoted or perhaps uninformed

K: Yeah.

C: And, particularly, people who are of the male persuasion, as they will tell you at every instance.

K: Yeah.

C: I do tend to get a bit of a deeper voice.

K: Yeah.

C: Because I can put on the Voice of Authority.

K: Yeah.

C: And it’s not as deep as some people, like Lucille Stoole, one of our favorite drag queens, can do a much deeper voice than I can.

K: Yeah. (laughs)

C: And I do tend to… kind of project myself in space, which is something that I learned to do… I think in high school drama, but maybe before that. And to… assert the fact that I’m almost six foot tall. I’m fat, but I’m about three hundred pounds, so I’m a big dude.

K: Yeah.

C: I tend to put on my “big dude” thing.

K: Yeah.

C: Especially if I’m wearing a suit. I’m a big dude who carries a stick and has a doctorate. I can kick your ass both physically and mentally

K: Yeah.

C: And you should just shut the fuck up because you don’t know what you’re talking about, you fucking bigot.

K: Yes. And that’s always been – except for the stick part – that’s always been who you are. And I feel like, for me… I’ve gone in and out of the fight, and I feel like I took some years off to be a mom.

C: Mhm.

K: And to focus on Rasta and to put Rasta’s needs before my own. And… giving Rasta the space to find out who he wanted to be, to find out what his pronouns are, to find out if he even likes his name – because I’ve given him the opportunity several times to change his name. And… all of these – this room for exploration, I did sort of just kind of put myself on the backburner and do what was ever socially convenient at the time.

C: Yeah.

K: And… after that, then I started expressing “okay, well this is who I actually am.” And this is not who Rasta’s mom was or is. And I’m still Rasta’s mom, but Rasta’s 26, you know. It’s… just… it is what it is.

C: And what I’ve seen is that the more trappings of power that you have, the more you have expressed yourself and who you are.

K: Yeah.

C: And I think that’s really natural, and that’s why I’m not ever going to blame anybody who’s… in the closet. So, a couple weeks ago was national coming out day, and… I saw somebody post about inviting in. Rather than just coming out.

K: Yeah.

C: And I really liked that. Because I think, if it’s not safe for you to come out

K: And it’s not safe for everyone to come out. I don’t care where you live. I don’t care what city you live in. I don’t care what country you live in. I don’t care where you live: coming out is a personal choice that everyone has to make when they feel they’re safe doing it. When they feel ready to do that. Because some people lose everything by coming out.

C: Yeah. And, so, I’m not contending to conflate gender and sexuality here.

K: Yeah, they’re completely different.

C: But I’m acknowledging that society does.

K: But there is a coming out – there’s a gender coming out.

C: That’s what I’m saying. I’m acknowledging that society does.

K: Yeah. So, I’ve never been in about being agendered, but if you look at our Twitter profile, you can see what’s written by Kisstopher and what’s written by Chad based on whether or not I’m she. Like, Chad wrote our… pinned post, and I wrote our blurb. And we might change that in the future. I don’t know. I have to get around to it. Like, it’s one of those things that I have to get around to it, but, at the time… we were just doing what we always do. And Chad always thinks of me as Kisstopher, but when Chad talks about me in public – she/her. And that’s completely fine with me. And Chad very honestly said, “well, I want people to know when I’m talking about you.”

C: Yeah. On Twitter, it’s a lot easier when I use a pronoun and a “she” then people will be like, “ah. Talking about Kisstopher.”

K: But somebody thought a tweet you made the other day was from me, and I thought it was really sweet.

C: Yeah, and

K: They thought it was (laughs) me. And that was like “aww.”

C: And I had – I had edited it to

K: I’m sorry, I’m so itchy today.

C: I had edited it to put your name in.

K: Yeah.

C: And then I took it out because I thought “it doesn’t matter.”

K: Yeah, it doesn’t.

C: And then when they were like, “right on, sister.” I was like, “thank you. Right on.”

K: Yeah. So, I think our gender isn’t as strict, and I think it isn’t… as fraught as it would be in the United States because, in Japan, we don’t really interact with it as much as we would in the United States.

C: Yeah, I think so. Just, professionally, I’m either Chad or Dr. Musick depending on the level of distance. So, for that, it never comes up. Professionally, you’re always Kisstopher.

K: Yeah.

C: And, so, that doesn’t come up that way. I think, just in terms of how people deal with us, it’s just always… Musick-san or Kisstopher-san or Chad-san. Which, those I find annoying for reasons I may have talked about before.

K: Yeah.

C: But “first-name-san” is always just going to rankle for me.

K: And “miss” and “ma’am.” Oof. I do not like “miss” and “ma’am.”

C: No.

K: At all at all. I like being your wife, so I don’t mind being Mrs. Musick, but it feels kind of rude to me.

C: Yeah.

K: It feels low-key rude, but when someone’s like “Ms. Musick” I’m like “oh no. You’re being rude on purpose.” And if someone ma’am’s me – I just don’t like miss and ma’am. I feel like miss and ma’am are condescending. Every time I’ve experienced someone calling me miss or ma’am, it’s been a condescension except for if they’re from the south, or if they’re a person of color, and they call me “Miss Kisstopher” – that’s a cultural thing, and that’s different. But just to be like “miss” or just to be like “ma’am.”

C: Yeah.

K: I feel like they’re trying to put me in my place.

C: Well, they’re trying to remind you that they’re a man and you’re not.

K: Yeah. And, so, that’s been my experience of the use of those two.

C: Right.

K: So, we hope you enjoyed this conversation about me being agendered in the United States and Japan and how we see gender. Again, if we said anything that hurts your feelings or upsets you, reach out. Let us know. And we’ll be more than happy to record another episode addressing anyone’s thoughts, concerns, or questions because we’re really open about who we are and how we express ourselves. To be honest, I said to Chad before we recorded this, “hey, I’ve seen you being kind of weird because I’m talking about being agendered, and you think you’re oppressing me, and so we need to have a conversation about it, and I’d rather do that” (laughs) as an episode than have the conversation, so we could get an episode recorded.

C: Well, the last thing I want to do is oppress anybody. It’s the opposite of that spectrum where I just assert all of my “big dude”ness. Is if somebody is not… acting a jackass or a jack hole, I want to be very careful not to step on anybody – to not crowd anybody out – to give everybody a space and… let them use their voice. Because I can’t give anybody a voice. People have their own voice. And just… kind of generally be… kind. And a good thing in the world.

K: Yeah, and we like to amplify voices.

C: Yeah.

K: So, we’re going to go on over to Patreon and talk about what’s brewing in our Patreon-exclusive content, which is not going to be related at all to (laughs) what we just talked about.

C: No, it’s not.

K: In any way. It’s a secret. It’s a Patreon exclusive, so… head on over with us to Patreon and find out what we’re on about. And talk to you next time.

C: Bye.

K: Bye.