(Some talk of sex in this episode.)

K: So, lately I have been thinking about dating apps. And… it crossed my mind that I didn’t do dating apps, but I did OkCupid online one night as a joke, and we talked about it once on one of the other casts, but you did online dating, right?

C: No, I didn’t do online dating.

K: What are you talking about?

C: I’m saying apps didn’t even exist when we met.

K: Yeah because apps are a smartphone thing, and we met like… well over 20 years – well over 21, 22 years now.

C: Yeah, so before smartphones existed.

K: Yeah.

C: But, no, I did not do online dating.

K: Didn’t you meet your first wife online?

C: Yes, I did meet my first wife online.

K: So… you – like, you lived on different coasts.

C: But that’s like saying you did street dating because you happened to meet somebody on a street and then start dating them.

K: That’s called casual dating. It’s a thing. That you meet someone casually and date them casually.

C: Okay but… like if you

K: So, you weren’t online for the purpose of meeting a romantic partner is what you’re trying to say.

C: That’s correct.

K: Okay.

C: I learned to program, which later became my profession. I made lots of friends – some of them I still talk to today.

K: Yeah.

C: But I did know a lot of people who met other people online and got married to them.

K: (laughs) You’re one of them.

C: I’m one of them.

K: (laughs)

C: But in some of those cases, it worked out, and they’re still together 30 years later.

K: Yeah.

C: In many cases, it didn’t work out, just

K: But you have one friend that met several different people online and has been divorced like three times now?

C: No, he met one person online. The divorce part is true, the other part is not.

K: Okay. Divorced three times but still a believer.

C: Yes.

K: So, I always trip out on… like… the decision to be a fourth wife.

C: Mhm.

K: Or fourth husband to somebody.

C: You’re saying not simultaneously but serially.

K: Either. Either or.

C: Okay.

K: Like, if someone already has three spouses, and you’re in a multiple-marriage relationship – what makes you decide “yeah, I want to be the fourth”?

C: Mhm.

K: And if someone’s been divorced three times, what makes you want to be their fourth marriage?

C: No, what if they’ve been widowed three times?

K: It would have to depend on the circumstances

C: You’re saying like if all of their previous spouses had drowned at night even though they were afraid of the water, that would be different than somebody who had had somebody die of cancer and that kind of thing.

K: See, I don’t know. That’s just eerie, right? That’s, like… I don’t know, it makes me uncomfortable.

C: You’re saying, like, if somebody’s three spouses died by drowning even if they were afraid of water, that would be eerie rather than

K: I’m saying anyone having four – outliving four, three spouses is eerie.

C: I’ve known people

K: Because what if they’re always out of town when their spouse dies?

C: Mm. Like, when their spouse dies of cancer, they were out of town?

K: Well, there are ways to give people cancer. It’s not like you can’t give someone cancer.

C: Yeah, but on the other hand – morbidly – I’ve known people who liked to marry people who were terminally ill.

K: Mm. That’s true.

C: Not for money. Just, like…

K: Yeah, there are people who really enjoy caregiving.

C: Yeah.

K: In their relationships. And that’s cool.

C: So, I don’t think you can search for that on an app though.

K: I think you that you can search for that on an app.

C: We just don’t know

K: There’s an app for every kind of dating.

C: Yeah. Yeah.

K: So, the first app that I became aware of was Grindr. And… you and I were already married, so I wasn’t using Grindr, but I became aware of Grindr because I remember just thinking it was incredibly unsafe.

C: Yeah.

K: To send your picture to someone’s phone who would then tell the person you sent your photo to how far aware from them you were? Well, I guess not your phone, but you could message somebody – at the beginning of Grindr – and it would say exactly how many feet away you were for hooking up for sex. And here’s the thing… wanting to hook up for sex doesn’t mean you want to hook up with everybody for sex.

C: Right. Just like I go to work, but I don’t actually want to work for every company that I’m aware of.

K: Yeah.

C: But, yeah, you and I had moved to Japan before smartphones came out.

K: Yes. And… as we talked – as our Musick Notes will know – I worked with one of the inventors of Android.

C: Yes. But we had personal digital assistants when we were at school.

K: Yes, we did. And we had emails and all of that – all of that stuff.

C: Yeah.

K: And we – and there were many, many more search engines out than there are now.

C: Yes.

K: Because that was back in the day of AskJeeves and

C: Yeah, when ask.com was AskJeeves

K: GoFetch and

C: Yeah.

K: Yeah. I really liked AskJeeves.

C: Yeah.

K: Whatever happened to AskJeeves?

C: They got purchased by ask.com and then ask.com got purchased by Yahoo, I think? And then… that… Yahoo killed everybody.

K: Yeah. And I really miss Yahoo Groups.

C: Yeah.

K: I really liked Yahoo Groups.

C: Yeah, we’ve talked about that before.

K: So, what was the first dating app that you became aware of? So, here’s the thing – like, the dating forums that I was aware of was OkCupid and another one – Match.

C: Right. Match.com.

K: Yeah. Match.com, and Match.com was just straight up cruising. It was

C: I think the first ones I became aware of were OkCupid and Match.com because you were aware of them.

K: Mhm.

C: And then there was

K: And we had that weird party at our friend’s house where it was like – she was trying to get everybody on Match.com.

C: Yes.

K: Like, literally signed us all up – even you – on Match.com.

C: I do not remember ever being signed up. But I remember

K: Yeah, you were signed up. You never – you like, “I don’t want to look at anybody. I don’t want to do anything.”

C: I remember you being signed up and just getting filthy messages within like ten minutes.

K: Yeah and thinking it was hilarious.

C: Yes.

K: It was funny to me.

C: Yes.

K: So, I don’t know. I was like

C: So, before we had left the U.S., eHarmony had opened. I don’t know if they’re still open.

K: Mm. Yeah.

C: That was the first one to say they matched you based on something other than the other person found you hot.

K: But eHarmony was like, you had to go in and do a video and all of that.

C: And fill out a profile – I don’t think you had to do a video because video still wasn’t a thing for the internet.

K: You had to go into eHarmony if you wanted to be on their thing, and you had to

C: Yeah? Interesting.

K: Well, because when eHarmony first – eHarmony’s been around forever, and so has OkCupid. Because I used to get things from them in the mail.

C: Okay, they haven’t been around forever, though. Because I was at the very first internet conference in 1995.

K: I was saying pre-internet. Dating services like

C: Oh, yeah, dating services.

K: Dating services became a thing on my radar when I was like 16, but I thought it was weird when I was 16 that they were sending me, like, match stuff. Dating service stuff.

C: Well, the Victorian era had dating services, so

K: Yeah, so they’ve always been around.

C: Yeah.

K: So, how does it feel to have your wife always cruising the internet for new dating sites?

C: (sighs) I feel like, thank you. Thank you for checking them out for me, so I know which ones are worthwhile.

K: (laughs)

C: Like, let me know where the hot folks are at.

K: Yeah, and so like – okay, I think the most interesting time is when I was vetting swinger clubs.

C: Mhm.

K: And… so, a swinger club is basically where married people go to have sex with other people.

C: Yes.

K: And… so, you and I have never patronized any of the swinger clubs here in Japan.

C: That’s true.

K: And… I help a lot of couples – because I’m sex-positive and kink-positive – I help a lot of couples transition from monogamy to polyamory or into

C: In your work as a therapist.

K: Yeah, in my work as a therapist. I’m not a sex therapist. I don’t have sex with my clients, although I do talk with clients about sexual disfunction. I do not have any – I do not do any sex acts with my clients at all whatsoever.

C: Yeah.

K: Although some of the sessions can be quite sexually graphic.

C: Yes, but like you talked about – “I had to stop my client from flashing me.”

K: Yeah.

C: I don’t know who they are, or even what gender they are, but you were like “I had a client today. I had to stop them from flashing me.”

K: Yes. I tell them, “no nudity.” I have a no nudity policy.

C: Yes.

K: Even though I’m a nudist, but we’re not in that dynamic.

C: Right.

K: And I would feel comfortable doing therapy naked.

C: Mhm.

K: but I always wonder what it’s like for you when I’m like, “honey, I came home, and here’s this thing, and oh my gosh.” And I’m talking about technological advances in dating. Because like I knew about Tinder right when it came out.

C: Honestly

K: There’s Tinder and Bumble and… Pairs and OkCupid are – and those are the top ones in Japan. I know there’s way more, but those are the top ones in Japan.

C: Right. Honestly, it’s one of the less disturbing things that you research.

K: Yeah?

C: Yeah.

K: What’s one of the more disturbing things I research?

C: Um… you’ve researched, in the past, like… domestic violence support, which is way more disturbing to me than people wanting help dating.

K: Oh, the fact that there is no domestic violence support in Japan.

C: Yeah, like what to do if somebody’s being poisoned…

K: Yeah.

C: Like, just different… things that are like… I think that person’s in a terrible situation. And, like, you know – your grief clients dealing with the different manner of death of people and things.

K: Mm.

C: So, you being like “yeah, I’m researching dating apps” – I’m like “rock on this person is”

K: (laughs) You’re like, “woohoo. That’s light, light fare.”

C: Right?

K: (laughs) So, with the dating apps – what I find really interesting about them is the way that they have changed in Japan over the past, I want to say five years. So, five years ago… Japan nationals were ashamed of being on dating apps.

C: Mhm.

K: And, now, because of Covid, dating apps are becoming really socially acceptable.

C: Mm. Yeah.

K: And it’s okay to show your face – and, now, on… which one is the swipe right swipe left one?

C: Tinder?

K: Yeah. Now, on Tinder, there’s a lot of sugar mommas and sugar babies on it. So, to our listeners, if you want to become a sugar baby, and you live in Japan – go on Tinder. The sugar mommas are shopping.

C: Well, be careful if you’re not Japanese because you need to have permission… like, that kind of work

K: I’m not promoting that anyone should do that. That was a flippant remark.

C: Oh, okay.

K: I am not taking any responsibility for any choices anyone makes from listening to the podcast.

C: Okay. Because

K: You’re like being all serious (laughs)

C: No, I’m just

K: Like I’m really suggesting it to people: hey, go become sugar babies. I’m not suggesting that to our listeners.

C: Well, prostitution is legal in Japan for Japanese nationals, so it’s not

K: Yeah. But being a sugar baby is different than compensated dating.

C: I understand that, but you also see compensated dating on those sites.

K: Yeah.

C: Where people are like “hey I’m only interested in dating you if you’re going to pay me for it.”

K: Yeah.

C: And that’s legal here in Japan. It’s more legal than escorting. Escorting is legal in the U.S., but in Japan it could be like

K: Escorting’s legal in some parts of the U.S.

C: I think escorting as a euphemism is legal in some parts

K: Escorting for sex is not.

C: Right.

K: But being someone’s walking partner – like being paid to accompany someone to an event.

C: Yeah.

K: Is legal.

C: Right, that’s what I’m saying.

K: Yeah.

C: So, I guess I feel like the dating apps here are more an extension of the social apps than they are an extension of the find somebody to bang apps that originated in the U.S. with Grindr and such. Because you and I used to use a social app, which was the Meetups app, to find

K: Yeah.

C: Typically, language exchange events where we would go and speak and help people improve their English, and they would help us improve our Japanese.

K: Yeah.

C: But, you know, other things like hiking or social outings or

K: I think everybody knows about Meetups now.

C: I think so.

K: Yeah. So, like, Meetups is great. There’s also HelloTalk – you can practice language exchange via the internet.

C: Mhm.

K: And… (yawns) those are the – I’m yawny again today. Sorry guys. Two back to back weeks of just being yawny yawny.

C: Well, good thing

K: But I’m not Laurel.

C: But you’re not, no. Yeah… alright.

K: (laughs) I got Chad so good.

C: You did.

K: If you guys could see his face (laughs) I feel like now you see how it feels. You see how it feels, now.

C: Yes, yes. You’re here in your gold and white dress telling me how it feels.

K: No, it’s black and blue or gold and blue?

C: I don’t remember.

K: I don’t know. I only see it as black and blue, so I don’t know.

C: Yeah. I see it as the other one, so I don’t know, either.

K: (laughs) So, that’s a fun thing.

C: And then I think it’s interesting how… proliferate it is – the cross-cultural aspects of the apps.

K: Yeah.

C: Because some apps are very much oriented toward… “I want to meet somebody who’s not Japanese.”

K: Yeah.

C: Or “I want to meet somebody who is Japanese” for people who are not Japanese.

K: Yeah, I feel like Pairs is really oriented to – so, of all the dating apps that re available in Japan, I feel like Pairs is my favorite.

C: Mhm.

K: and I feel like most Westerners are familiar with OkCupid when they come over.

C: Yeah.

K: And I always – if they have good Japanese. You have to be fluent because you have to write and read and communicate in Japanese on Pairs. You have to be able to fill out and read the prompts – the prompts are all written in Japanese – at least, in Japan. I like Pairs because it goes in. Like, “do you want to own a pet in the future?”

C: Mhm.

K: “Do you currently own a pet?” And they have different groups that you can belong to – like there’s different groups that are for gaming. There’s different groups for like “I want to be married within a year.” There’s different groups for “I want to hook up.” There’s even a group for – I’m really, really excited exists because I have a lot of clients who aren’t dating because of the pandemic.

C: Mhm.

K: And there’s a Pairs group, and… this is not a promotion – and Pairs you should get with us and promote and like pay us because this is one hell of an endorsement – but I really like that they offer video dating for people who don’t feel comfortable meeting someone in person. Because of Covid. And I think, for me, I’m not – I don’t have a position on whether or not you should go and meet someone to date. Well, except if I’m talking to you, Chad, you shouldn’t because you’re my husband.

C: Right.

K: And we’re in a closed relationship, currently.

C: Yes.

K: We’re doing monogamy. So, if we weren’t doing monogamy, that’d be a whole – that’d be a different podcast.

C: It would be a different podcast.

K: Yeah. Have a different vibe to it.

C: The Musicks… And Friends in Japan.

K: (laughs) Would you want to invite your friends to be on the cast?

C: No. No.

K: Neither would I because, like – if we were open, I would still want the cast to be us. What we do.

C: Yes.

K: Because I don’t like to do… with – so, everybody knows that I’ve been poly tons, and that we were open in the beginning, but I wouldn’t want to – I like to keep the streams separate.

C: (laughs)

K: I don’t like mixing the streams. I know some people like to mix and match – they’re like poly, and some people like thruples and all of that. I don’t want to be in a thruple because I would be flaming pissed if you and our partner ever agreed to something I disagreed to.

C: Mm.

K: I’d be like “Mnm. That’s not on. Always on my side or silent.” And, so, Rasta’s taken the silent route because he can’t do the always on my side. That’s how I know I would be in a thruple. Because we don’t do anything sexual with Rasta – we’re not, you know… we’re not doing that. That’s not – don’t even think it – but like when we’re doing a three-way conversation with Rasta

C: Yeah.

K: If I even think about – because just this morning, this afternoon – I’m not proud of it, but I snapped at you a little bit. I’m sorry for that. But Rasta just like… he rolls his lips under is teeth and just like clamps his mouth shut, raises his eyebrows, and looks up and over to the side like “I’m not here right now.”

C: (laughs)

K: It’s a really weird face.

C: Mhm.

K: I just made it without doing the

C: You did, yes.

K: Is that a good impression of him?

C: It is. I’m sure everybody could see it, too.

K: (laughs) They could feel it.

C: They could yes. (laughs)

K: They could feel it, and that’s what matters. So, if we had a thruple, how would you feel if like me and the other person – you would hate that, too.

C: I think so. It’s difficult to conceive because we’ve never done that.

K: Yeah.

C: It’s always been you and me.

K: Yeah.

C: Whatever else is going on, it’s you and me.

K: Yeah. And something you found irritating when we were open is that everyone would show me their boos even when I didn’t ask them to.

C: Yeah.

K: I don’t know why people like flashing their boobs at me. It’s a thing that has existed for me my whole life, and my boobs have been everything from a B-cup to now – a EE-cup – and it doesn’t matter what size my boobs are. People would just at some point in time… flash their boobs at me. I don’t know what it is.

C: You probably give off like some kind of pheromone or something. Like a “show me your boobs” pheromone.

K: I think so. I think if there is a “show me your boobs” pheromone that I have it, and I’m not flashing my boobs at anyone.

C: Right. So, I think if there is a “show me your boobs” pheromone, and you could isolate it.

K: I would make so much money.

C: You would make so much money, yes.

K: Yeah. Selling that. But it’s not as pleasant as it sounds. Like, if you’re in non-sexual settings, to have someone flash their boobs at you.

C: Mhm.

K: Is weird. And I’ve had people in like professional work settings – where like at a job – where they look around and then flash me just one boob. And I’m like

C: Well, that is unpleasant. Do both, commit.

K: No, I’m like “why are you flashing me your boob to run down the hall afterwards?”

C: I don’t know.

K: Giggling, like what is funny about that for you? Because now I’m like “whoa, boob.” I – like, no, now is not the time for boobs.

C: Mhm.

K: Believe it or not, there are times – I know it’s hard for you to conceive of.

C: It is difficult, yup. But…

K: No, you don’t – because there are times when (laughs) I’m not proud of this, but times you’re at work that I’m like, “hey, it’s time to go show Chad my boobs” and sometimes you were like “not on.” You were like “no thank you. No thank you, ma’am. Put those away.”

C: Well, and sometimes I’ll be going to sleep, and you’ll be like “babe. Babe. I’m going to back up the show. Look at her boobs.”

K: Yeah. I do

C: That happens a lot.

K: Yeah, if I see boobs, you have to see boobs.

C: Yeah.

K: So, anyone’s boobs I’ve ever seen, I always think – since we’ve been together – I’ve always been like “Chad needs to see these as well.”

C: Mhm.

K: What do you think about that policy? If I see boobs, you see boobs.

C: I think it’s a weird thing for you to even call a policy.

K: (laughs) To like (laughs) have a boob policy?

C: Yes.

K: Well, that was one of the things that ended up with us… one of the reasons that we went monogamous is because I couldn’t get everyone showed me their boobs to show them to you, which I thought was so weird. Like, I thought it was really weird. But then I knew that I never wanted to do a threesome with you, so maybe it’s not as weird.

C: Yeah.

K: Because I would do threesomes with other people, but threesomes are an artform, and I just feel like… and you’ve done threesomes with other people, and they are an artform. And… the way that… I always did threesomes; I just didn’t see how it would work in a way that was satisfying to me

C: Mhm.

K: If it was me and you.

C: Yeah.

K: What do you think about that?

C: I think it’s always been you and me.

K: Yeah. But do you think that the way that you did threesomes would work for us?

C: I don’t think so. I think that the third person would always feel left out.

K: Yeah, I think so, too because I think that – so, for me, I didn’t mind being an object.

C: Mhm.

K: And I also didn’t mind being the center of attention.

C: Mhm.

K: But I – I’ve seen other people be very upset when they’re… the object.

C: Right.

K: And, so, I don’t know. It takes a special mindset to be good at threesomes. (laughs) I think it does because you and I – we’ve talked about this before.

C: But I think it takes a special mindset to be good at just being a couple.

K: Yeah, it does take a special mindset. So, I think it takes a good – a special mindset to be whatever you’re being.

C: Yeah, I think that’s the issue is

K: And be content and be good with it – like making your decision and standing in that truth.

C: Yeah, I would say that, for most people… paired monogamy is not their most natural state.

K: Yeah, I think so, too.

C: But it’s the most

K: I think it’s unnatural for some.

C: But it’s the most socially acceptable state.

K: Yeah, and I think that’s too bad.

C: Yeah, so I know that it’s – it could be difficult for people who are… aromantic. For example.

K: Yeah.

C: Who don’t want romance.

K: Yeah.

C: Especially if they’re also asexual.

K: Yeah.

C: There’s a lot of pressure to like, “if you’re not going to have romance, don’t you at least want to bow chika bow bow?” And, for them, it’s just no.

K: Yeah.

C: And I think… it’s a little bit easier for people who are aromantic but… sexual.

K: Yeah.

C: Because then people just see them as a player.

K: Yeah.

C: But I think that… can have its own… kind of feelings associated with it. When people regard you as something you’re not, I think it’s always tough.

K: So, I work with – because of my LGBTQIA+ work that I do in therapy – I work with aromantic sexual individuals.

C: Mhm.

K: Who really don’t like the player because they’re not – the whole player thing is that you’re lying to people or deceiving people.

C: Right. Right.

K: And I find that most aromantics are really – at least the ones that I know that identify as aromantic – are very open about the fact, hey I’m aromantic.

C: Right.

K: And… I really dig that. There was a time in my life that I was aromantic, which you met me at that time – I was trying to figure out whether or not I ever wanted to be in a relationship again.

C: Yeah.

K: And, so, I was aromantic but hypersexual. And that’s why I was dating a lot of couples because couples were so much easier – like, they were – there were some people who were looking for a third partner

C: Mhm.

K: And I found they were fun to go and play with, but I was very clear “I’m not going to be your partner”

C: Right, right.

K: “I know what you’re looking for. I’m a bad fit for it. I’m not going to be your partner.” I’ve never thought bad of people that are – and I ‘ve known couples that are a foursome. That all four of them are together.

C: Yeah.

K: In a variety of ways. And they’re very happy with that. And, so, I feel like as long as everybody’s consenting – even if it’s consensual nonconsent – as long as everybody’s consenting, I’m cool with people pairing up however they want to pair provided that everyone is… at the age of consent. And, for me, the age of consent is 16 if you’re looking at the age range of about 16 to 21, but I feel like after about 19, 20, that people – 19, 20, you can make your decision to be in any type of relationship you want. You know. For my standards, and I now for some 5people that’s very controversial – they’re like “18 is still a child.” And me, in my 50s, I’m kind of ageist. I just don’t have anything in common with most 18-year olds.

C: Yeah, I think if I encountered an 18-year-old… who was like “oh, I want to be in a relationship with you” I would feel like “you’re too young for my son.”

K: Yeah. And… but I don’t want to judge anyone who’s 18 and in an older relationship because I don’t know their story.

C: Right. Right.

K: So, for me, it’s a case-by-case thing. I’m not saying all 18-year olds are appropriate for… long-term big age gaps.

C: Right.

K: I’m not saying all 18-year olds – but I’m saying there are some, and it has to be case by case, make sure there’s no power abuse in the dynamic.

C: Right.

K: And I think that’s what we’re looking at because I met you when you were 23, but… you had attended an orgy, you had been in threesomes, you had been married. You were divorced. You had lived in two different states. You had changed careers twice. So, you had done a lot of living by the time you were 23 because you became an adult at 16.

C: Yeah, I graduated high school at 16, so I’d been in the workforce

K: And lived on your own.

C: Yeah, I’d been in the workforce for 7 years, so

K: Yeah.

C: If you’re looking at somebody who’s college educated, that’s 29, so….

K: Yeah. And, so, for me – an 18-year-old that’s been on their own since they were 12 is a very different 18 year old that’s, you know, has had a very different life.

C: That is a senior in high school.

K: Yeah. That’s a senior in high school from a really positive, safe home life.

C: Yeah.

K: Because I know our son at 18 – I was like – I looked at you one day, and I said, “I’ve never been that young.”

C: (laughs)

K: Like, who he was at 18 – I’ve never been that.

C: Well, and he graduated high school at 12

K: Yeah, he did.

C: And university at 16, so… that was just about life experience, not about education.

K: Yeah.

C: Or intelligence or decision-making ability or anything. It’s just about… the number of things he had seen.

K: And also, when he was 12, he was – his first love was a 22-year-old

C: Mhm.

K: Woman that he met in Greece. And they were having

C: She was in Greece, he was not. They were on the internet

K: She was in Greece, they met on the internet.

C: Yeah.

K: They had met on the internet in a forum. What was that forum he used to use?

C: The various ones – I think it was one of those… mafia games.

K: Yeah. Okay, so… because this was before dating apps.

C: Right.

K: So, he was on the forum, and he was talking – and, for me, I was like “you better tell her how old you are because she thinks you’re an adult.”

C: Yeah.

K: “Because you’re talking about” they were talking about college – they were both taking the exact same college course.

C: Right, right.

K: But at different schools. And that’s what they had started talking about, and… Rasta was like in love and was like “hey can I go visit my girlfriend in Greece.”

C: Right.

K: And I was like “what do you mean? You guys are more than friends?” And he was like, “yeah.” And so, we sat down, and we talked about the relationship, and I was like “you need to tell her because she’s going to feel so betrayed.”

C: Yes.

K: And hurt. Because they were like falling in love, love, deep romantic love. And I didn’t see any power abuse – we were reading all of the conversations. There was no heavy sexual content. There was no sexting. There wasn’t anything – it was two people

C: But there was also no awareness on her part of how old he was.

K: Yeah, and she disappeared

C: Yes.

K: Like, she was gone as soon as he said it. And he was so devastated and hurt by it. But… then I told him “you’ve got to tell people how old you are.” And then he had the same thing happen to him when he was 16 – he met a 12–year-old on the internet, again nothing sexual happened, and I was like… “this girl is 12.”

C: Right.

K: So, I’ve always supervised his internet stuff.

C: Yeah, I think that’s one thing the internet does that is less common in real life. Because, for example, when I was at Berkeley… in the math department, there was an 11-year-old and a 15 year old who were also attending.

K: Yeah.

C: But because we were showing up in person to class… I could see they were children.

K: Yeah.

C: Like, I didn’t have any classes with any one of them, but the math department had a lounge that many of the math people would hang out in.

K: Yeah.

C: So, I knew who they were. Everyone could see they were children. I think if I had been taking an online class with them, there would have been no indication they were. So, I think people on the internet – it’s easier to get involved in relationships and not realize how old the other person is.

K: Yeah.

C: Where it’s not…

K: I had a teacher tell me “oh, honey, how old are you?” And I told her, “I’m 50.” And she was like “oh. Okay.” Because she was condescending to me, so… it was a liberal… white liberal professor who was condescending to me on how I was explaining the different forms of blackness.

C: Right. In your PHD program.

K: Yeah. So…

C: At a school that most students are older.

K: Yeah. So, it’s like “ohh.” Because she was so convinced of her rightness, and then when we met in person, she was just like begging me – begging me – to pick her as my chair. I was like “I already have a chair.”

C: Mhm.

K: And then when I said my chair’s name, she was like “oh.”

C: (laughs)

K: I love that because that’s the reaction I get whenever I say my chair’s name. They’re like “oh.” And I’m like, “yeah.” So there. And when I say my co-chair’s name, they’re like “ohh.” And I’m like “yeah.” I got an “oh” and an “ohh.” So, for me, this is all part of dating apps and online dating because what I’m finding now is more common is older people lying about their age.

C: Mhm.

K: And I feel like, on the forums before it was apps – on the forums – it was more younger people who weren’t lying about their age, but younger people that had access to electronics.

C: Yeah.

K: And weren’t being supervised. Because we were supervising our son, and… it didn’t dawn on me to ask that girl’s age because the conversations were so innocent, and it was mostly about schoolwork, and I didn’t think about it. And then when he was like, “I’d like to go to Greece” I was like “what are you talking about? What do her parents think?” And he’s like “she’s 22.” And I was like “what?”

(laughter)

C: Yeah.

K: What you mean? And I was like, you know… “the age is good, right? She’s not too old, right?” And he was like, “no, no. She’s not too old for me.”

C: He was very cosmopolitan. (laughs)

K: Yeah. “Not too old.” Because there’s a seven-year difference between you and I, and he was probably thinking “it’s just ten years.”

C: Yes.

K: But like… 12 and 22. That’s a significant difference.

C: Yes, that is a significant difference.

K: That’s one I think the whole world can agree is a big no.

C: So, that happened to me in jr. high.

K: Yeah.

C: In person. So, I started jr. high when I was 9.

K: Mhm.

C: And the jr. high went up to about 15-year olds.

K: Mhm.

C: On the first day, this girl decided she really liked me. She would follow me around like “hey cutie, how you doing?”

K: (laughs)

C: And one day she asked me “how old are you?” I said, “I’m 19.” And I never saw her again.

K: (laughs) Very much like our poor son.

C: Right?

K: So, if you were single, do you think you would be on the apps? I don’t think you would be.

C: I don’t think I would be.

K: Because you’re super, super social. So, I think this is confusing for everybody because you’re autistic, I’m not. You’re super social, and I’m not. I’m not introverted. And I’m not extroverted. I am just… very much always – and I think the Musick Notes – our beautiful Musick Notes – already know I’m very much “come to me.” Like, I will meet you at a central place once, but then you must always come to my home after that.

C: (laughs)

K: And… all of our friends – like now we don’t because we’re social distancing because hello two disabled people

C: Yeah.

K: But… it was still very much “come to me.” Like, even if we were going somewhere, I was like “come to me first.”

C: Mhm.

K: And then we’ll go to wherever.

C: Yes.

K: And then… we’ll go to my house. Because I don’t like eating out.

C: right.

K: and, so, we would… I had – most of my friends, we would like come here and then go get coffee or come here and go to museums.

C: Even before the pandemic, we would eat out a couple of times a year, and since Covid started, we haven’t eaten out at all. Not even once.

K: Yeah. And you’re very much go-out.

C: Yes.

K: And you like to run the streets.

C: I do. Yes.

K: So, ho – what do you think you’d be doing?

C: I think I would be attending social events. Not looking for anything in particular, just being myself. Just being open.

K: Mhm.

C: It worked out pretty well for me before.

K: (laughs) So… do you think that you’d be doing something like Toastmasters? The 4H club?

C: I might. If I were suddenly single for some reason, I would probably try to improve my Japanese.

K: Okay.

C: So, I’d do something along that. I would probably do some kind of service organization because I do tend to like to do that.

K: Yeah.

C: And that would probably be it because I like going out, but I also have low energy a lot of the time, so… it’s kind of a balance. If I had more energy, I might go out every day if I were single.

K: Yeah.

C: To various things. But… I don’t have… infinite energy.

K: Pre-Covid – so, I think that… since we dropped out of the ACCJ – the American Chamber of Commerce Japan –

C: Yeah.

K: I think that was a big social – big part of your socialization.

C: Yeah, it was. Yeah.

K: And then there was that other place that you were going. I forget – you would go do random talks at places.

C: Oh, yeah, when I was doing my PHD and then

K: And even after your PHD, you were doing like

C: After my PHD, I was a post-doc. And then… when I was working for the translation and editing company, I was constantly in contact with academics because I was helping them with their work, and so I got invitations to talk, so… I’ve been… from Hiroshima all the way across Japan to… Eastern Honshu. 

K: If we’re talking about your talk circuit, you’ve given talks in Korea – South Korea – as well, and the United States, and Germany.

C: And… the

K: What was that other country? I forget.

C: Yeah, and Denmark. And Russia. And… the Russian one was virtual, but

K: Yeah. So, you’ve been about.

C: I have been about.

K: You put it about.

C: Yeah.

K: Do you think you’d be putting it about again? Do you think you’d do that again?

C: I think I might.

K: Do you think you want to start doing that again anywho?

C: No, I don’t.

K: Okay. (laughs)

C: I don’t want to have – I just don’t have the energy. I just… like, feel rundown a lot.

K: Well, I think right now because you’re having asthmatic symptoms – like, when your asthma’s flaring up. Because this is the time of year that your asthmas… asthmas

C: Yeah.

K: You have different types of asthmas. This is a time that your asthma is really bad because you get… the allergen. There’s a specific tree that like our street is lined with.

C: Yes.

K: And the way our ACs work – and yes, we still have our ACs on. It’s 80 degrees out. Don’t harass me.

C: (laughs)

K: Sucks in all the pollen and such and just makes it miserable for you.

C: Yeah.

K: It messes with your ability to sleep, and your ability to breathe.

C: So, this is me heavily medicated, or you would hear me coughing and wheezing.

K: Yeah.

C: Coughing, wheezing, and sneezing.

K: Yeah.

C: So, I looked it up to make sure I didn’t have Covid, and it said “if you are wheezing and sneezing, it is allergies. Neither one of those is a symptom.”

K: Yeah. Well, and we called the Covid hotline.

C: We called the Covid hotline

K: And I took your temperature like every day all day, and then I’m not proud of it, I had like a mini meltdown. I even sent out a Tweet. “We have to check our protocols. Chad has a cough. I have a cough. Rasta’s looking rundown. What’s going on?”

C: (laughs)

K: And I was just like

C: Yeah.

K: “We gotta do some things. We gotta change some things.” And so, we called the hotline, and now – so, in Japan, it’s really interesting. The hospitals close at 6 or 7 o’clock at night, and then you have to call a hotline to find out which hospital has an emergency room that’s open 24 hours.

C: Yeah.

K: And it’s not the same one. It changes day by day, and so… we check it, and then – oh my gosh. This was random. Like, I have never believed that things could make your blood boil.

C: Okay.

K: You know what I’m going to talk about right?

C: No, I don’t.

K: You have no idea what I’m talking about?

C: I don’t. I probably will when you start talking about it, but I don’t.

K: When I had the blood pressure of 182 over 112.

C: Oh, okay. No, I still don’t know. I remember that event, but I still don’t

K: Oh my gosh, the first presidential debate.

C: Oh, yes. Okay, yes.

K: I was so upset by it that I almost had a stroke.

C: Yes.

K: Like, it was awful, and I had to meditate and do breathing exercises. It took me like thirty minutes to lower my blood pressure.

C: Yeah because your blood pressure’s a little bit elevated normally.

K: Yeah because I have tachycardia which is a rapid heartbeat that has nothing to do with anything other than a list of things that’s wrong with me.

C: In California, it was interesting because anytime we’d go to the doctor and they’d take your blood pressure, which sometimes was normal sometimes was a little high,

K: Yeah.

C: But your heartrate would always be 110 or 120

K: Yeah.

C: They’d be like “you’re having a cardiac event” – “no, check my chart, this is always my heartbeat.”

K: Yeah. And they’re always wanting

C: “What stimulants are you taking?”

K: Yeah.

C: “None. Check my chart. This is always my heartbeat. You can see that I get tested for stimulants every time I come in. It is tiresome.”

K: Yeah. And also, too, if you would touch me.

C: Yeah.

K: My heart races if you touch me. Over the years, it’s gotten better, but it’s still… like… when I’m – like, before we record – there’s a whole process for me spending an extending time looking at Chad so that my heart doesn’t – so it doesn’t jack up my heart.

C: So, it doesn’t grow two sizes that day.

K: (laughs) But you didn’t believe me about this. You thought I was being dramatic, and then I was like “okay. I’m not going to look at you, walk away from me, I’m going to go take my blood pressure. You’re going to be able to walk up and see, and then I’m going to take my blood pressure after we talk for five minutes and look at it.” And it was completely elevated.

C: Yeah. So, we own a sphygmomanometer.

K: Yeah.

C: We do not own a blood oximeter.

K: No, we don’t. So, we don’t know what my blood oxygen is.

C: Right.

K:  But it’s always bad. So, based on my heartrate and my blood oxygen, I can be admitted anytime I want to any hospital.

C: Yes. They’re like “you’re dying.” “Nope. I have lupus and porphyria.”

K: Yeah.

C: “I feel crappy, but I am not dying.” They’re like, “no, you’re dying. We need to do surgery now.” “No.”

K: Yeah, no. Not doing that again. So, I feel like today was on-topic because everything we were talking about is kind of in the sphere of dating. Which is kind of in the sphere of online apps.

C: Yeah, I think so. Physical reactions to other people and social reactions.

K: Yeah. So, I feel like we kind of stayed on target.

C: Yeah. We’ll put a content note that this had some sexy time stuff in it.

K: (laughs) You are so funny – because he does call it “sexy times.” He does, like in real life (laughs) he says, “sexy times.”

C: Yes. Like last time we talked about cogitation, yes, in real life, I say “sexy times.”

(laughter)

K: He’s beet red right now. It is so cute. (laughs) He’s like “don’t tell everybody my business. Don’t put my business in the streets.”

C: But you could say it more circumspectly. You could just say “wow, this is another reminder that Chad sounds like this in real life too.”

K: so, I was going to say, “that’s what this codpiece is about.” rather than podcast. (laughs)

C: Wow, okay.

K: Right? Because I’m like – because that’s what I call your stuff is the business.

C: Okay, I’m glad you clarified because I’m like “you do not call it the codpiece.”

K: (laughs) No, I do not. I was thinking “don’t put your business in the streets” and I thought of your streets, and I was going to say podcast, and that turned into codpiece.

C: Interesting.

K: Because that’s what this codpiece is all about.

C: Okay.

K: Putting your stuff – I guess keeping your stuff from being in the streets. Because it’s a codpiece.

C: Yeah.

K: And then, um… oh. Really just blue stuff we’re not into – our son reported, Rasta reported, that there was – that he recently received an invitation to take part in cuckolding.

C: Yeah, that was interesting. Since the spam filters have gotten better, we have gotten less entertaining emails.

K: Yeah. I don’t get – and I’ve only ever gotten two random dick pics.

C: Yeah. But we used to get quite a bit of

K: I don’t want dick pics. (laughs) I’m not sad about that.

C: But we used to get quite a bit of spam emails without pictures, just text, phishing things.

K: Yeah, for camgirls.

C: With like great… funny lines like, you know…

K: The pussy pirate one?

C: Pussy pirate, like

(laughter)

C: Penis sensei.

K: Oh yeah, that was another one.

(laughter)

K: It’d be like… “ahoy pussy pirate” or “hey there penis sensei” like what are you talking about?

C: (laughs)

K: And I get it to my business account, so that’s even more disturbing.

C: Yeah.

K: Because it’s the account that I do – that has the most action on it. So…

C: Oh. It has the most action. That’s why.

K: (laughs) So… I just thought it was interesting that Rasta got invited to engage in… a threesome where one person was being cuckold.

C: Yeah.

K: And so that one person is being denied sex.

C: Yeah. That’s…

K: But in a really aggressive… it’s a BDSM

C: “You are watching us have sex. Hahahaha.”

K: So… bondage, sadomas – BDSM – bondage, sadomasochism, yeah.

C: Yeah. Bondage – BDSM is bondage, domination, sadism, and masochism.

K: Thank you.

C: Or bondage, discipline depending on who you ask.

K: Yeah. Thank you. I think now the correct term is discipline.

C: Yeah, that’s why I say depending on who you ask – how old they are.

K: So, me, it’s dominance.

C: Right.

K: Not discip – I don’t.

C: But you are older. So, I think that depends on

K: Thank you for recognizing.

C: Right? You are a woman of a certain age.

K: Yes, I am. Thank you for noticing, sir. I appreciate it. So, if you follow us on over to the take two, it’ll be… Patreon Exclusive Content over there that is completely not related to what we’re talking about here.

C: Yup.

K: Because that’s what makes it exclusive is that it’s – we’re only talking about it there.

C: Yup.

K: But we hope that you enjoyed this podcast, and that it was entertaining to it, and that you laughed along the way, and…

C: Laugh with us. Cry with us.

K: (laughs)

C: Subscribe with us.

K: Yeah, subscribe and like us and follow us because we like you. (laughs) This has just been a wonderful 45 minutes of tomfoolery and shenanigans, and we hope you tune in next week for more tomfoolery and shenanigans. Bye.

C: Bye.