K: So, lately I’ve been thinking about living authentically in America versus living authentically in Japan. Because, here’s the thing, I find that Japanese people don’t care, and expatriates… unless they’re American don’t care about, like, who I am, what I’m about, my history, none of that. So, I find that, in America, Americans really wanted to know all my adjectives. And, in Japan, Americans still really want to know all of my adjectives, but the Japanese don’t care, and… I guess some – some foreign countries care, but – like people from the U.K. tend to care about my adjectives as well. But, outside of the United States and the U.K. – like, Canadians don’t care, Australians don’t care, most people don’t care. And I’ve always been out in terms of being pansexual – I’ve called it different things: I’ve called it bisexual, lesbian, now I’m pan. I think I’m really more demisexual than anything.

But when I met you, you were one of the most… unintentionally stealth people in the world. You were, like, on the DL about everything and thought you were living out loud about everything. Which was really interesting to me.

C: I did, and it carries over to the physical. I still startle you because of how quiet I am when I walk.

K: Yes, you do.

C: And, like, I’ve tried to figure out various ways like knocking on the wall, or clapping, and no matter what I do

K: I’m hard of hearing.

C: Yup.

K: Which I recently came out as.

C: Yup.

K: But I was out as hard of hearing in the United States.

C: But I’m also just very stealthy.

K: (laughs)

C: Like a ninja.

(laughter)

K: No, take that back. We do not appropriate. We do not cultural appropriation.

C: (laughs)

K: So, that was just a joke. We’re not trying to culturally appropriate and say… that you’re something Japanese.

C: Yes. I apologize to all the ninjas out there.

K: Yeah.

C: I am not trying to appropriate your ninja culture.

K: And, also, you need to – hello – the legendary house of ninja. You are not part of the legendary house of ninja.

C: No.

K: From – on any of the coasts.

C: No. I’m not.

K: (laughs) Because there are several houses of ninja in the ballroom culture. And, so, go watch Paris is Burning. Go watch… Paris is Burning. Go watch After Paris is Burning. And then watch… Legendary on HBO Max and get into it.

C: Yeah.

K: Ballroom’s awesome.

C: It is. It’s a lot of fun.

K: Yeah.

C: So

K: So, the things that you were stealth about without knowing were…

C: So, I didn’t know that I was autistic, so I wasn’t telling people I was autistic.

K: Yeah.

C: Because I didn’t know it.

K: Yeah.

C: I suspected but wasn’t sure that I was epileptic.

K: Yeah.

C: And I didn’t talk about that a lot. I was, apparently, being stealth about being married.

K: Because you never mentioned it.

C: Yeah. And… not sure what else I was stealth about. I think I was stealth about having money?

K: Yeah, you were stealth about having money.

C: Yeah, so

K: You were also stealth about being an atheist.

C: Yeah, so I think that I wasn’t stealthy about anything. Just people didn’t ask. And, if they asked, they didn’t believe me.

K: That’s true. So, I was surprised because I invited you over – we had hung out a couple times at school, and then I invited you to my house to type for me.

C: Yeah.

K: Because I’m generous like that. And then…

C: You were like, “you are my type…ist.”

K: (laughs) And then someone called you, and I was like, “who’s that?” And you were like, “my wife.” And I was like, “what?”

C: Mhm.

K: “You’re married?” And you were like, “yeah.” We weren’t doing anything.

C: No.

K: And you were in an open marriage, so it wasn’t a big deal.

C: I was literally typing a paper for you.

K: And I had various relationships.

C: Yeah.

K: That all knew I had various relationships but not necessarily about each other. Like, nobody wanted the details.

C: No.

K: (laughs) Nobody wants the details. Some people do, but nobody at that time did.

C: Nobody good wants the details.

K: That’s not true. You can have voyeurism as part of your sexuality.

C: Okay. Yes.

K: And still be a good person.

C: Yes.

K: Like, you can do consensual voyeurism and not

C: Yes, you can.

K: That’s one of the things that I think is really misunderstood about voyeurism: it’s not always creeps.

C: Mhm.

K: There are people that have voyeurism as part of their sexuality but do consensual voyeurism, and they’re part of the kink community and society.

C: Yeah.

K: So, I think, like… in the United States, I think that there was a point in ti- like, I’ve been out. As soon as I discovered that I liked women, I was very open about that from the moment it happened. And then I was very open when all the different flavors of people that I’ve enjoyed – I’ve been very open about enjoying all the flavors that people come in.

C: Mhm.

K: And, if you’re offended by being called a flavor, then you’re just not thinking about me eating you, and I’m sorry for that.

C: And you are not one of the flavors she would enjoy.

K: (laughs)

C: Because one of them she doesn’t enjoy is bitter.

K: (laughs) Well, and now I’m Chad-centric.

C: Yes.

K: I think I’m Chad-sexual.

C: Yes.

K: Would be the most accurate way to… express my sexuality. Because I only feel sexual desire for you. I don’t feel it for anyone else.

C: Okay, now you’re talking specifically to me, not to the whole audience.

K: What do you mean?

C: Well, sometimes we say, “you” when we mean the people who are listening.

K: Yeah.

C: And you were saying “you” to mean me.

K: I said I’m Chad-sexual.

C: Yes.

K: But, specifically, Chad, my husband, the person sitting across from me.

C: Exactly.

K: Because he’s autistic, and he’s like “you could be meaning any Chad now.”

C: You could.

K: (laughs)

C: You could (laughs) Clarify. Don’t leave me hanging. Don’t leave me hanging Chad.

K: So, I feel like, in Japan, you’re more intentionally out about things. And, in the U.S., you just let people make assumptions.

C: In the U.S., nobody believed me when I would tell them things. And it started really young. So, I think – it started before this – but one of the funniest times was when I was a freshman in high school. I was taking German.

K: Mhm.

C: And my German teacher called my parents in for a conference because I refused to learn the numbers.

K: Mhm.

C: And the German teacher’s evidence for this was every time he would say “wie alt bist du” – “how old are you” – I would say, “ich bin zwölf” – “I’m twelve”

K: Mhm.

C: So, he called them in to say, “he’s working hard. He’s doing well. But every time I ask him how old he is, he says he’s twelve. I don’t know why he’s not getting that he’s fourteen.”

K: Mmm.

C: And my parents said, “he is twelve.”

K: Yeah. So, I didn’t laugh because I’ve heard this numerous times. I don’t think I laughed the first time you told me, either.

C: You didn’t laugh the first time.

K: No. So, if you’re laughing, stop it. Don’t encourage him.

(laughter)

K: It’s so funny because I listen to our podcast from time to time, and I say that a lot.

C: You do.

K: I tell people to (laughs) not encourage you.

C: The perils of laughing.

K: Yes. I’m, like, stop it. Stop it right now. (laughs)

C: Like it’s a Roger Rabbit kind of thing. They’re just going to slip away.

K: Yup. So, nope. Not going to happen. Not on my watch. (laughs)

C: So, nobody believed that I was twelve. When I moved to California, nobody believed that I was only nineteen. When I had money, nobody believed that I had money because of how I dressed.

K: (laughs) Because you looked like a vagabond.

C: When you and I started dating, nobody believed we were dating.

K: That’s true.

C: So, I just got used to nobody believing me about anything that I was saying. Because it just seemed bizarre. Like, I don’t match their idea of what a person with that characteristic should be like.

K: Except for – I think that all changed when… Rasta was about seven or eight, and we switched schools, and we had that really great group of friends

C: Yeah.

K: All of us believed all of us about everything.

C: Yes.

K: And we were a really close group.

C: Yes.

K: I miss that time. It was awesome.

C: It was.

K: Yeah. And then it ended.

C: Yeah.

K: (laughs)

C: As things do.

K: Yeah. We all grew up. Grew apart. Well, we le- we left the United States, so

C: Yeah. So, it didn’t get all messy or anything. It just

K: Yeah, no. We left the United States.

C: Yeah.

K: We were all really close friends, but we were also really close friends because we had kids in the same school.

C: Right.

K: And one of the first people to leave the group – I’m super proud – was someone from a different country who was like, “I don’t think that I can do my profession in this country”, and I helped them get into a school so that they could earn a U.S. degree so that they could work.

C: Yeah.

K: And they were super happy. But they were the first to leave the group.

C: Yeah. Because they became super busy.

K: Yeah. With schoolwork. I was kind of bummed about that because I really liked them.

C: Mhm.

K: So, for me, being out apart everything – out about all of my opinions  – all of the time was really – I feel like, in the United States, I was much more intentional than I was when we came to Japan.

C: Right.

K: So, in the United States, everyone in our friend group knew that I was part of the LGBTQIA+ community, and I need to change my language to be LGBTQIA2+ community. I’m not going to do the 2s for two spirited. I’m going to do the 2+, and if that offends you, please send us a tweet, and I will do 2s. But, if you’re not indigenous – and specifically Native American – please do not appropriate that term. The two spirited. Because it is a specific Native American designation.

C: Just like not saying you have a spirit animal. Spirit animal is a specific thing that’s not European.

K: Yeah. So… no cultural appropriation here. So, for me, it was always really intentional because it was always an activism act. Because I was raised from a very young age that my very existence was a political act. My mother giving birth to me was a political statement for her.

C: Mhm.

K: And… having me was a political statement, and she raised me as a political statement for the time that I spent with her. And, you know, famously at nine I sued to get rid of her. But… we still visited. I still had her in my life up until she died off and on. And it was – for me, I just always liked being an activist. And I always liked my existence being political. I always loved the fact “I’m here. I’m in your space.” And that’s a political statement. Because you don’t get to live in a world where I don’t exist. So, I enjoyed going into white spaces. I loved going into religious spaces and challenging what they thought an atheist was.

I really enjoyed challenging – not challenging their faith because I’m not a rabid atheist. I don’t feel the need to tear people’s faith down. But really saying, like… when they ask me where do my morals come from, being like, “do you own slaves? Do you think owning slaves is moral?” And, like, really asking them “when was the last time you read your bible from cover to cover, and do you agree with all of the choices?” Like, do you believe in incest. Do you believe – just really horrific things.

C: Yeah.

K: And… so, for me, those kinds of conversations happen when you get in a room with people who are different than you. And… I liked having diverse friendships and people that have different political views than me, people that have different ethnicities than me, people that have different socio-economic standing – just everything different. I liked it being that way. And, so, I think you sort of got used to that through us being together in the United States. What do you think? Is that what happened for you, or how did it come about?

C: I think I saw you do it, and I saw you do it as an intentional act to take up space.

K: Mhm.

C: Because I had grown up never wanting to take up space. Never wanting to be noticed.

K: Mhm.

C: Because that attention was usually either negative or taking attention away from somebody that I felt deserved it more.

K: Mhm.

C: And… so, I think that what I learned by seeing you do that in a political, intentional way was, “okay, yes. I can take up space. I can take attention away. And I can choose who I take it away from.”

K: Yeah.

C: So, if somebody is being… bullying or domineering or that kind of thing, I can take up space to take that away. To kind of… make – make a space for other people.

K: Yeah.

C: I have opinions. And, in the professional setting, I am not shy about sharing my opinions and explaining my reasoning and all of that. Just in social situations, I don’t feel the need to take up a lot of space for myself.

K: Mhm.

C: But I do like to take up space to give that room to other people who are being shut out of the conversation.

K: Yeah. So, in the United States, I felt like living authentically was much more political than it is in Japan because I don’t feel like I have to fight for my place in Japan. I feel like there are very strict rules in Japan – and this is a very controversial statement, what I’m saying. And expats who are here in Japan – each and every expat has had their own experience. And I really invite everybody to watch a YouTube channel called Melanated in Japan. I think it’s Melanated in Japan. Is it Melanated in Japan?

C: I think so

K: No, the Melanated Files. It’s the Melanated Files. It’s a really good series – I’m sorry that I messed the name up at first – and it’s… black people from all over the world and all walks of life talking about what it’s like to come and live in Asia and different parts of Asia. In Singapore, in Japan, and I had the same experienced that a lot of them on the Melanated Files had. And that is, for the first time, I was American.

C: Right.

K: That’s it. I’m just American. And this is for every shade and every hue of black. It’s not just because I’m light skinned. It’s also – my darker siblings have also had the same experience, and natural hair, pressed hair, wig, no wig – and it’s true that we’ve also had negative experiences. So, it’s not all perfect. It’s not like a Shangri-La over here. But being out, like… the Japanese wonder…. Why? Like, just be who you are, and that’s living authentically. Like, if I go up to a – a Japanese person, and I tell them, “I’m black” they say “okay.” And that’s the whole thing of it. “Okay, you’re black. Interesting. But you’re American, right?” And I’m like, “yes, but I’m a black American.” “Okay.”

C: I think that kind of essentialism of “you are what country you come from” is really interesting in Japan.

K: Yeah.

C: Because the Japanese culture, broadly – not necessarily any specific person – has the concept of two faces. The “honne” the true self and the “tatemae” the forward-facing self.

K: Yeah.

C: So, everybody is expected to have a public persona that is distinct from who they really are.

K: Yeah.

C: And that’s not seen as disingenuine, it’s not seen as deceptive. That’s seen as being polite.

K: Yeah.

C: Don’t dump all your crap in my lap.

K: And… so, for me, with Japanese nationals – when I tell them I’m part of the LGBTQIA+ community, they wonder why I’m discussing something that doesn’t relate to them. And… because I’m not going to have sex with them, so a lot of them get nervous. Like I’m hitting on them.

C: Mhm.

K: And it makes it really awkward, like, talking to them about the LGBTQIA2+ community – see, I’m still working on that 2 – for me, it’s interesting that if I talk about things of a sexual nature outside of the therapeutic environment, Japanese nationals think I’m hitting on them.

C: Yeah.

K: “Because why else would you be talking about who you like to have sex with?” And I have asked them, “would you like to have sex with me” – they have asked me, not I have asked them, “would you like to have sex with me” and I’m like, “I’m married.” “Are you asking me for sex?” I’m like, “no, I’m married.” “Okay. Why are you talking to me about sex?”

C: Right.

K: And I’m like, “I’m not talking to you about sex.” And they’re like, “yes, you’re talking to me about sex.” So, it’s really, really confusing to try and have the conversation.

C: And that’s not confusing to me because I felt much the same way – I didn’t feel the “why are you talking to me” – I understood why you were telling me that you’re not straight.

K: Yeah.

C: But… even when it was clear that, yes, you did want to have sex with me

K: Yeah.

C: I still felt like I didn’t need to know that on a personal level.

K: Yeah, and it took me like two months to convince you that I actually wanted to have sex with you.

C: Ohh, you know, that’s not what I mean. That I did need to know on a personal level because that – that was – that’s been an exciting journey for

K: (laughs)

C: Decades now.

K: Thank you. (laughs)

C: What I meant was… that I didn’t feel like I – I didn’t really understand why you felt the need to come out to me.

K: Mmm.

C: Because… I had… met one of your girlfriends. You had talked about your ex-wife. You had talked about the guys you were – like, to me, it was clear that you not… straight.

K: Yeah. But I do talk about my partners and use my partners’ pronouns and all of that.

C: So, when you were saying, “you know that I’m pansexual” I didn’t know that’s the label you used, but I knew you weren’t straight.

K: Yeah.

C: But I still sometimes… struggle with people coming out to me that I don’t feel like it’s relevant information. But I struggle with the same thing when people make a point of letting me know that they are straight.

K: Yeah.

C: Like, it’s not

K: Which happens.

C: Yeah, which happens. So… and, after being with you, I understand why people – from a safety viewpoint; from a… “are you going to turn on me if you discover this thing about me?” come out.

K: Yeah.

C: So, now I understand it a lot better about that. But I still struggle with it about most other facts.

K: Yeah.

C: Like, “I really like cats” okay, are you warning me that you are covered in cat hair?

K: So… living authentically, to me…. Means letting everyone know your truth, but that’s a very American idea.

C: Right. And that’s what I’m saying: what aspects of your truth are relevant to me?

K: Yeah.

C: And I am very ego-centric in conversational stuff about what people should tell me. If it’s not relevant to me, why should we spend time talking about it?

K: And, so, this is something that’s come up in my dissertation because I’m doing it on cultural intelligence. And talking about – in my dissertation – talking about intersectionality and cultural relevancy and cultural relationalism.

C: Mhm.

K: And, so, most people who – not most people, all people – have cultural aspects that are irrelevant to the context in which they’re in.

C: Right.

K: And cultural intelligence is knowing when those facts are relevant and when they’re not is part of cultural intelligence. And, for me, why it’s relevant and why it’s part of living authentically is because, one I was raised in the United States where diversity is an issue.

C: Mhm.

K: And people don’t want to talk about it. So, for me, having people think about it and talk about it is a revolutionary act.

C: Right.

K: And I think, in Japan, having people think about it and talk about it is also a revolutionary act. It’s just less violent.

C: Yeah. I think it is a revolutionary act.

K: Yeah, so I have never felt at risk stating any of my truths – I felt financially at risk stating my truths in Japan.

C: Right.

K: But I haven’t felt physically at risk, and there were times in the United States that I was saying my truth and just being me that put me at physical risk and put me in harm’s way without knowing I was in harm’s way. Like, I was just, like, someone told a joke that was offensive to me, and I’m like, “hey, you’re talking about my community. That’s not okay. One, you’re talking about human beings so that joke’s not okay. Two, you’re talking about people from my community. That’s not okay.” And then before I could go any further, they’re like, “what? You’re part of the LGBTQIA2+ community?” And they started calling me slurs and started becoming really hostile to me. And I was like, “yo. Chill. This is not that serious. You were never getting any from word go.”

C: (laughs) “And it was personal because I like everybody, but I don’t like you.”

K: Yes. “To be clear, your friend can get it, but you can’t.”

C: (laughs)

K: “So, now what?” And… so, it’s just surprising to me how quickly… a conversation when correcting someone who’s bigoted or racist or having – expressing implicit bias or explicit bias… and it just gets violent and dangerous really fast.

C: Right.

K: So, I felt like being authentic in the United States was a much more violent thing than it is… in Japan.

C: And I think that’s specific to you – between the two of us. I’m not saying it’s only you that’s experienced that

K: Well, you’re a big dude.

C: Right. And that’s what I was just going to say.

K: You’re a big dude with a cane.

C: And even when I didn’t have a cane, I was still – since I became an adult, I’ve been a big dude.

K: Yeah.

C: So, when I speak up, I haven’t ever felt physically at risk for taking up room.

K: Mmm.

C: And that’s one thing I really valued about you showing me how to take up room is that I’m able to take up room to, like… I think of it like opening up a tent.

K: Mhm.

C: How you undo the zipper, but then you kind of have to take up room to make the door open all the way.

K: Yeah.

C: So, taking up room so that people who ordinarily would be shut out of the conversation can be part of that conversation.

K: Yeah.

C: So, taking up room as a doorway rather than as a wall.

K: Yeah.

C: So, for me, living authentically is always letting everybody know my truth and… I realize that I wasn’t doing that in my therapy practice, and, so, I changed my About Kisstopher page so that it reflects more of who I am based on my associations. I don’t feel like it’s an appropriate place to be like, “hey, I’m pansexual. Former sex worker” all of those kinds of things. Because I don’t – I’m not trying to be a centrist as a therapist.

C: Well, it’s not the dating game. “Let’s find out five facts about your potential therapist.”

K: Yeah.

C: But it is a way of signaling to people.

K: Yeah. And I’m surprised how often me being a sex worker is relevant to the thera – to the client.

C: Mm.

K: And in terms of providing safe space to talk about it – and it’s – by me being authentic and authentic as a therapist, I can kind of… feel when someone’s like wanting to tell me something but afraid it’s going to change my opinion of them.

C: Mm.

K: So, I usually just do the “hey, full disclosure – former sex worker. And I’m not anti-sex work. I’m sex positive. But I also don’t think it should be anybody else’s choice but yours. So, if you’re being forced into sex work, that’s not okay. If you’re choosing sex work but you don’t want to choose it anymore, that’s okay. If you’re choosing sex work and you’re completely happy with it, that’s okay.”

C: Mhm.

K: “If you don’t want to choose sex work, and someone’s trying to talk you into sex work, that’s okay.”

C: It’s not okay that they’re trying to do that, but that’s an okay topic for conversation for therapy?

K: Yeah. And I’m not going to be like, “you should do it.”

C: Right.

K: It – to me, whether or not to do sex work is a deeply personal choice.

C: Mhm.

K: But I promise you every week it comes up in some relevant way to a client. And I’m really shocked by that.

C: I’m surprised by that, too.

K: Yeah, I think of all of the things that I am… I would think that that would be the lowest in terms of frequency what would come up.

C: I think being a foster child would be lower just because the number of people who are foster children is lower.

K: That comes up about once a month.

C: So, being a foster child is lower.

K: Yeah. It is.

C: Okay.

K: Yeah, so being a foster child comes up. Being a sex worker comes up. Being, you know, black, Jewish, indigenous, American – all of those come up. Being… pansexual, demisexual – I don’t know. I like pansexual better than demi, but I really – it really is about the person, and nobody gets Chad-sexual until they meet you, and then they’re like, “oh yeah. I get it.”

C: (laughs)

K: “I can see that.”

C: No, you can’t see that. I keep it covered up.

K: (laughs) You better had. We’re doing monogamy.

C: I am a modest man.

(laughter)

K: Yes, you are. Well, and anyone who follows us on Twitter, they get our Twitter After Dark tweets. They know what I’m talking about. Bow chicka bow bow.

C: Oh yeah?

(laughter)

K: Why didn’t you do the pervy “oh yeaaahhh”?

C: Because I thought it was funnier with the “oh yeah?”

K: So, like, a month ago – sometimes, I – I’m like – I tweet out – so I have hereditary coproporphyria

C: Do you?

K: Yeah. And like, one of the things about it is that sometimes when I’m in a porphyria attack, music can create moods for me. And Cupid’s Got a Gun by Marilyn Manson about a month ago was just, like, creating euphoria in me.

C: Mhm.

K: Just something about the beat of it – it was so sexy and beautiful and euphoric and then, like, his love of James C- it was a whole thing for me.

C: Okay.

K: And, one night, I made a bunch of tweets about you, and I was just so sweating it, so scared, and I was like – first thing when you woke up, I was like, “babe. Did you see those tweets?” You were like, “what tweets?” I was like “did you see those tweets?” You were like, “what tweets?” I’m like, “the Twitter After Dark tweets.” And then I was really happy that you liked them.

C: Yeah.

K: But it’s scary because I’m, you know, tweeting about how sexy you are without your consent. And you’ve given me your consent multiple times

C: Yes.

K: But I just feel like, “that was too far”

C: I will allow you to say how sexy I am.

K: Yes.

C: My generosity is nearly unlimited.

K: (laughs) So, how do you feel about being completely… out about everything? And completely authentic.

C: I feel like it’s impossible. I feel like there’s always more to be out about.

K: Mhm.

C: And, so, what I try to do is I try to choose the things that would… be unpleasant surprises in the future.

K: What do you mean by that?

C: That if I think that so – that I’m – somebody doesn’t know something and when they find it out, if they find it out for some reason, they’re going to… be unpleasant to me.

K: Mhm.

C: That is, they are going to be an unpleasant surprise – their reaction.

K: Mhm.

C: Then I try to get it out there right away, so that I can not waste my time on somebody who’s going to be unpleasant.

K: Mm. Yeah. I view it that way, too.

C: It’s the same reason that, if I go out with you – hypothetical person here in Nagoya – to lunch, and you are just spending the entire time hitting on the waiter or waitress

K: Mhm.

C: And you’re married. We are not going to be out again.

K: Yeah. You’ve accidentally shown up to a double date you did not consent to.

C: Yeah.

K: Tell that story. That’s interesting because nobody knows what I’m talking about. Nobody has the context.

C: I was teaching English to a private client. This was back when I was still doing my PHD. I had a few cli- a few private clients for English teaching. And… he said, “let’s go to dinner tonight.” And I said, “cool. That’s fine with me.” Usually we got takeaway or something because we had long

K: Because how late you guys did it, you would often go out to eat.

C: For hours in the evening. I’d get home at midnight, so we’d – yeah. We’d eat.

K: Yeah.

C: And… when I showed up, there were two women there, and he was like, “this is my date. And this is yours.” It was like, “uhh… no.”

K: “I did not consent to this.” (laughs) I love telling people that story. I love telling people that story. I bring it up all the time that you accidentally showed up to a double date. That’s just so funny.

C: Yeah. So, one of the very first things that I tell anybody that I meet is that I’m married. And I wear a wedding ring most of the time. If I’m going to a social event, I always wear a wedding ring, and most of the time if I’m going out for more than a few minutes, I wear a ring.

K: I haven’t worn my wedding ring except to doctor’s appointments in like… several months because I’ve been on quarantine.

C: Well, I’ve stopped wearing mine during the pandemic just because I don’t want to disinfect it every time and all of that.

K: Yeah.

C: During the pandemic, I don’t go out that often. Maybe once… once a week or so, but I don’t wear it when I go out to buy groceries or whatever just because it’s a hassle. But if I were to go to a social event for some reason, I would definitely wear it because I want

K: You’re not going to a social event during the pandemic.

C: No, I’m not.

K: Post-pandemic

C: Post-pandemic, if I go to a social event, and pre-pandemic when I went to social events, I always make sure to wear my wedding ring because the first thing I want people to know is I am married, and I am open about being married.

K: Yeah.

C: Because I was not intending to not let you know that I was married when I was… when I met you.

K: Yeah.

C: And that’s even though my wife and I had already agreed that we were getting a divorce.

K: So, not your wife. Your ex-wife. Because this wife has not consented to divorce.

C: My ex-wife. 

K: I want it to be duly noted for the record. I have not consented to divorce.

C: Duly noted for the record.

K: And I am your only wife.

C: Yes. The person who was my wife at the time that we are talking about

K: Yeah.

C: We had already agreed that we were getting a divorce, so

K: Yeah.

C: It wasn’t any issue about sneaking around or anything. It just… I wasn’t wearing a ring because we were getting a divorce, and

K: And, shitty fact, they bought you a wedding ring you were allergic to.

C: Well, yeah, that, too.

K: Who does that?

C: A lot of people. A lot of people don’t realize they have sensitivity to metals.

K: You knew you had sensitivities, and you complained about it, and they didn’t care.

C: Yeah.

K: One of the reasons they’re your ex-wife.

C: Okay, yeah. True enough.

K: Yeah. I’ll drag her. I don’t care.

(laughter)

K: I actually do not feel any animosity. We talked. We got to know each other a little bit. We’re not friends, we don’t communicate, but there – at least, on my side, there’s no animosity.

C: It’d be strange after what, 21 years?

K: Yeah. To have animosity? That’d be weird.

C: Yeah. Like…

K: They were clear that I wasn’t stealing you, and they were clear that

C: “21 years ago, I was married to this person for a year, and you took them” like…

K: No, when we talked, they never accused me of that. They never thought that.

C: Yeah. So, I just didn’t see that as something relevant, but I wasn’t trying to hide it. Which is why when you asked who called, I was just like, “yeah, my wife called.”

K: Yeah.

C: And you thought that that was… who’d you think was calling?

K: A friend? I didn- I didn’t know. That’s why I asked. So, for me, to live authentically – what I think it takes is… an understanding of what you’re willing to have done to you.

C: Mhm.

K: And the reason that I say it that way is I was willing to be punched in the face to have conversations.

C: Mm.

K: I was willing to risk being beaten up. And, so, for me, saying that someone should come out as anything or that they should live authentically or that not living authentically is wrong – I call BS on. Like, victims of… I don’t like “victims”. Survivors of abuse.

C: Right.

K: they have a right to not talk about that. Former foster kids. They have a right to not talk about that. People in the LGBTQIA2+ community, they have a right to not talk about that. No one is owed your truth.

C: Right.

K: Nobody is owed your story, so, for me, living authentically – for me – means telling everybody all my business all the time.

C: Mhm.

K: But that could be very intrusive for someone else. And very negative for someone else. For someone else, following all of the rules might be living authentically, and I do that, too

C: I feel very seen.

K: (laughs) Yeah, I was looking at you.

(laughter)

K: So, I don’t think that everybody has to be out and proud and loud. And… an activist and an agitator and a disrupter to be living authentically. I think those are all different things. So, for you, what does living authentically mean?

C: I think it means that I don’t… say or do things that give me advantages that… derive from people’s misconceptions of me.

K: Mm.

C: So… living authentically means that, if I think that somebody has a mis – has – believes something that’s not true about me, and it’s irrelevant, I don’t feel obligated to correct that. But if I feel like they would change their behavior on the basis of it, I do feel like I should correct that.

K: Okay.

C: And I don’t always do that because there are certain circumstances in which I feel like the way they would change their behavior is… not only immoral but illegal.

K: Mhm.

C: And, so, I don’t feel the need to… correct them on that. And it comes up the most in employment.

K: Mm.

C: So, now with my current employer, I’m out. They know that I’m epileptic. They know I’m autistic. It’s not an issue for them, and they’re very happy with my work.

K: Yeah.

C: They don’t mind giving me the accommodations I need for that. But, in job interviews and things when I need work, I did not disclose my disabilities.

K: Mm.

C: Even though – or more specifically because – I believed that would affect how they treated me.

K: Yeah.

C: And I still get somewhat regular inquiries on LinkedIn – people like, “I’m really impressed by your resume. You’ve got so many skills. You’re so fast. Do you want”

K: “You’re so awesome.”

C: Yeah. “Do you want to interview?”

K: “We love you.”

C: Yeah.

K: (laughs)

C: And so I say, “I’m always happy to talk to companies about opportunities, but here’s things you need to know about me” and if that makes them not want to talk about me, then they’re not a place I want to work.

K: And, so I just want to be clear that everything we’re talking about is because we’re in a place of privilege.

C: Absolutely.

K: So, for me… when I first came out to the world, and I was like, “this is who I am.” I had privilege because I’m 5’4” and at the time, I weighed 105 pounds. I was so tiny that it would just seem ridiculous to hit me.

C: Mhm.

K: But people still hit me and beat me up, and then they were surprised how scrappy I was. But it still put me at risk. And… the reason that I did that is because I was always hoping that me being… female-presenting, short, and super-thin – that that would give me privilege.

C: Mhm.

K: And then, as I got older, I got better at fighting. And then the fact that I was willing to do violence kind of radiated off of me. And… that gave me a kind of privilege. And then, as I got older still – and older yet – I had more money.

C: Yeah.

K: And that gave me a certain amount of privilege. The reason I’m talking about the different types of privilege is because… even in my most underdog – and I do air quotes – “underdog” position, I still had – I still saw the world clearly. I still understood the power of a small, skinny, light-skinned girl’s tears.

C: Mhm.

K: Who the world judged as pretty – because I was a model at the time and all of that. I was modeling and doing sex work as a lot of models do. Because modeling do – is not consistent enough to pay anyone’s bills. Like, you got to do something else.

C: It has a very steep income curve.

K: Yeah, it does.

C: Most people make very little money, and a few people make a whole lot of money.

K: Yeah. I was really happy when I could get my rate to 200 – to 200 an hour. I was really, really proud of myself. That took a lot of work because most models get paid nothing.

C: Mhm.

K: You get paid that you might be put in a campaign. But the work doesn’t come every week. So, like, every week you have a shoot.

C: Yeah.

K: So, you’ve got to do something in between the shoots. To be a model, you’ve got to have a job that you can just not show up to.

C: Yes.

K: If you get called on for a shoot. And I found that, you know, I could just be like, “sorry. I have to go to a shoot.” And a lot of people would be willing to drive you to the shoot, so, okay. Multitask. (laughs)

C: “I’m dating a model.”

K: Yes. (laughs)

C: And that’s what

K: “Dating” in air quotes.

C: And that’s what I was saying about – in employment contexts – I don’t feel the need to disclose. At the time that I really needed the work.

K: Yeah.

C: And, in the U.S. and Australia both, it’s well-established that lying to a potential employer about a disability, even if they find out later and have a policy of firing people who lie to them on their application, they can’t fire you for that because they weren’t entitled to that information in the first place.

K: So, know your rights always. And when it comes to living authentically, at the end of the day, I think to live authentically takes understanding the rules. Understanding the extent of your privilege, and then making a decision. How much of your truth you want to share with the world. Because nobody, nobody, can share all of their truth with the world. Like, in this conversation, we didn’t talk about my gender identity of being gender-indifferent or agendered – usually, I think of myself as Kisstopher. I don’t think of myself as agender.

C: Mm.

K: I know on our Twitter account I have she/her – it was shorter, and I could fit all the hashtags I wanted. (laughs)

C: Plus, with the two of us on the account, it makes it easier to distinguish between us.

K: Yes. It does. And… when I want to identify, I don’t say “I, she” I say “I, Kisstopher”

C: Yeah.

K: And, so, most often I think of myself as “Kisstopher”

C: Yes.

K: And the whole she/her thing is weird to me. So, I don’t know.

C: When

K: For me, it’s that simple. And that’s why I’m gender indifferent and sort of agendered because it’s like, “eh. I don’t get offended, but I don’t know. I don’t care.”

C: When I was younger, I authentically needed a job because I was authentically tired of starving.

K: Yes.

C: So, I feel like living authentically – being authentic to yourself – doesn’t necessarily – doesn’t mean putting yourself in harm’s way to tell the truth to people who are going to harm you.

K: Yes. You don’t owe anybody a thing. You don’t owe anybody your story. You don’t owe anybody any of your information or your inner workings or your inner thoughts. If you’re going to a job, you owe them doing the job you were hired for.

C: Yeah.

K: Because you agreed to that – if you agreed to it. If you’re enslaved or doing indentured servitude or working in a sweatshop, you don’t owe them your labor. That’s messed up. I wish we could free you from that.

C: Mhm.

K: You know, that’s awful. Now I’m really sad because I’m thinking, “what if this is playing in a sweatshop? This is so sad.” If you’re a sweatshop owner, and you’re playing our podcast, free your people.

C: Okay.

K: Because you never know. Because like in all

C: Well, they haven’t joined our Patreon, so not only are they cheap on their workers

K: Oh, thank you for reminding me about the Patreon. Exciting news, guys. We’re going to get new mics. We finally got enough patrons that we scraped together enough coins that we can get new mics. Because the sound is awful. And Chad will be so happy because I know that I’ve been rustling and sniffling and all of that, and he cringes. I pull my mic away, and he gives me side-eye. And I’m so, so excited.

C: I give you looks when your microphone’s falling over.

(laughter)

K: Because, yes, we’re recording this episode from bed. What? I’ve got HCP. I’ve got lupus. I need to lay down.

C: Yes.

K: I work hard.

C: You do.

K: A girl like me is tired.

C: She is.

K: Yeah because I like being a girl more than I like being a woman. I don’t know. A woman feels like too much responsibility. But I don’t mind being a man.

C: Okay.

K: (laughs)

C: I hear you, dude.

(laughter)

K: So, follow us – if you’re finding this conversation interesting, follow us on over to Patreon and check out the take twos. Keep the conversation or hit us up on Twitter. Thanks for listening. Talk to you next week.

C: Bye.

K: Bye.