K: So, lately I’ve been thinking about working remote, and… for me, it’s a mixed bag. I haven’t been doing it that long. I’ve been – so, I’ve always offered Skype session.

C: Right.

K: I think I’ve talked in the past about how bad I suck at e-therapy, so I don’t do it.

C: Right.

K: And… so, I’ve always seen some clients remotely

C: But you’ve seen them remotely from your office.

K: Correct. And now I’m seeing them remotely from home.

C: Right.

K: Which is a completely different vibe. One is that… I’m not in my… home office. I’m actually in a different part of the house because the – our two offices were set up without Rasta being in the home.

C: Right.

K: So, we didn’t need a third office space for Rasta, and… my home office isn’t really that private. So, I had to move to another – a different – because I never had did sessions from my home office.

C: Right.

K: It’s just basically… storage. So, it’s not even an office. It’s just a little part of the room where I keep some of my crap.

C: Mhm.

K: And, now, having to do sessions, I need to properly be in a place where no one else can hear me and no one can hear my clients. And I don’t have my ocean noises, and I don’t have my rou- I don’t have a lot of the stuff that I use.

C: Yeah, and I need to be able to work, and… use the toilet and all of that kind of stuff while you’re in session without… being in range of your sessions and without even the noisy toilet that we have being audible.

K: Yeah. Because we have a fully stacked, decked out Japanese toilet.

C: Yes, we do.

K: Like, the seat can heat up, it’s got several different settings for the bidet, it’s – it’s got things.

C: We did not order the automatic opener. They offered it when I

K: But the automatic opening, like… you and Rasta don’t always lift the lid.

C: No, not… like…

K: Oh, you’re saying the very top part.

C: Yeah, the very top part.

K: I’m sorry if that was like too Twitter After Dark for you

C: No, it wasn’t. I was like, “I do not just pee on the closed toilet.”

K: Oh, okay. So – so, you – okay. So, here’s the thing: the one at my doctor’s office that’s automatic opening does automatic opening of both the cover of the lid and the ring of the toilet seat. Which annoys the heck out of me

C: Okay because how do you use it?

K: Because I have to – yeah. I have to give a urine sample every time. And, to make matters worse, it has a stall next to it. A standing stall.

C: Uh-huh.

K: It has a urinal.

C: Yeah.

K: So, I’m like… so, me, I’m like, “great. Now I have to desanitize the ring” – I always desanitize the ring, but it’s annoying that I have to touch it.

C: Yes.

K: So, I do it with my foot. Even though I desanitize the ring.

C: You disinfect it, right.

K: Yeah. It – it’s just – in Japan, a lot of places have sanitizer that you can spray on toilet paper and desanitize the toilet. Even fast food restaurants have it.

C: Yeah.

K: So… first digression of the topic. Talking about our toilets.

C: Well, it’s nicer than the toilet in your office.

K: Yeah. The toilet in my office is… busted and, just like

C: It’s not busted. It’s just ordinary.

K: But, for Japan, everyone’s like, “oh” when they see the toilet in my office. They’re super disappointed.

C: (laughs)

K: They’re like, “oh, you just have… a regular toilet.”

C: A regular toilet. (laughs) Yeah.

K: I’m like, “yeah. I’m in a really old building.”

C: Yeah. It was built in the 1970s.

K: Yes. And it has not been updated since.

C: No.

K: Not a lick. Which is fine because I don’t live there.

C: Right.

K: And I’m like… if you’re coming here to…. There are clients that do come to because it’s a guaranteed bathroom situation.

C: Mhm.

K: Because dealing with phobias of bathrooms and such.

C: Yeah.

K: That’s one of the phobias.

C: Because you have an entire floor, and yeah.

K: Yeah. So, it’s really easy to deal with that. Or people that are dealing with IBS, anxiety-induced IBS – irritable bowel syndrome – and those types of things. Once they get over the shock of it, they’re like, “oh, okay. So, you don’t live here.” I’m like, “no. I don’t.”

C: So, I find it interesting how you’ve ado- adapted to working from home instead of just remotely.

K: Mhm.

C: Because you would see clients in person at your office.

K: Yeah.

C: And then some of them you would call on the phone or on Skype.

K: Yeah.

C: But you always kept your records here because you couldn’t leave the records where clients might go through them.

K: Correct.

C: So, your records have always been here.

K: Yes.

C: So… how is it working with all of your records right here? Because I know you had a whole ritual around, like… getting in the clients’ files and… taking it – because you keep encoded notes.

K: Yeah.

C: So, how is it just…

K: I still keep encoded notes.

C: No, I know that.

K:  Yeah.

C: But

K: I’m a little bit sloppier at… giving codes. I have… I will need to whiteout my book. I have a couple of names in my book. But they’re not… names that are the actual clients’ names. They’re a nickname that I gave the client because I don’t have the ritual of being in my office

C: Right.

K: And giving them a code. Because I don’t give a client a code until they’ve said that they want to work with me. So, how, like… the process of deciding to work with me is my first appointment – if you’re a Musick Note, this is going to be boring. It only takes a minute. If you’re not a Musick Note, you might find this fascinating. Even if you are a Musick Note, you might find it interesting to hear it again.

C: Thank you. They will.

K: So, to… become my client, the process is that… most of my clients email me. I’m really, really difficult – almost impossible – to reach by phone because I don’t answer my phone when I’m with clients, and I don’t answer my phone on my days off. That means I almost never answer my phone.

C: Yes.

K: You have to really time it perfectly because I have to be prepared. I had someone be like – I told them, “I have five minutes. It’s going to be quick” and they spoke to me for 90 minutes and still wanted an intake. And I was like, “I’m sorry, we did a phone intake.”

C: Yeah.

K: Because I offer a 60-minute free intake to every client including couples. So, for couples, I see them separately, and I see one partner for 60 minutes, and I see the other partner for 60 seconds because that’s the way I get the full story.

C: Mmm.

K: And everybody has confidentiality. So, now… and in my office, it was just the person’s initial on the calendar. And now I find that I am less diligent about putting things on my electronic calendar.

C: Right.

K: And I keep everything on my paper calendar because nobody sees that but me.

C: Yeah because you – you did complain when you first started that everybody just wants to grab your paper calendar and look through it and decide when they’re going to have an appointment.

K: Yes. Which I’ve always found irritating, but it’s always been encoded – because, my theory is even if – this is really morbid an episode, and I say this sometimes, but even if something were to happen to me in transit, I don’t think that should violate their confidentiality. And, so, their names shouldn’t be written in my book.

C: Yeah.

K: I do have space that I can write full notes in my book. But I don’t use that part of it. I use the smaller, micro part of it. A letter and a two-digit number.

C: Yeah.

K: So, that way you can’t find out who anybody is. And, now, I’m just doing some combination of two letters from their name.

C: Mhm.

K: And… or a nickname.

C: Mhm.

K: Based on some fact about them. And… one nickname can be “tall” (laughs)

C: (laughs)

K: And if you can figure out who a client is just because I wrote “tall” then crack on. You are a super sleuth. But I have to go back and erase all of that and put in codes. But I find that I ‘m not giving clients codes, and like I am repeating tall.

C: Mm.

K: Like… I have one client that, like, they’re tall in my book, and they’ve been tall in my book for three months now.

C: Yeah.

K: so, that’s the biggest thing. I’m feeling disconnected from the electronic portion of it.

C: Mhm.

K: Even though I’m more connected to the electronic portion of it because I do it by Zoom or Skype now.

C: Interesting.

K: So, that’s weird.

C: That is weird.

K: Yeah, and I find that… because I make a lot of hand gestures that are specific to helping people follow my train of thought, I’ve lear- relearned how to do those on a Skype call.

C: How to do them closer to your face so they can see them?

K: Yeah. And then I don’t cover my face with it. How to do them off to the side.

C: Okay.

K: Because, if you’re showing movement, like I’m doing the one-hand movement now.

C: I’m seeing it. Yeah.

K: And, so, I start with my… palm to the top of my health. And then I move them in different directions.

C: Yeah, if you put it in front of your face, you’d be vogueing.

K: No, I would not.

C: (laughs)

K: I’m closer to vogueing with what I’m doing now.

C: Okay.

K: Ugh.

C: (laughs)

K: You watched the whole season of Legendary with me.

C: I did, yes.

K: Every episode, they told you the five things of vogueing. Every episode almost.

C: But – but they love to do the strobe for the vogueing, so I couldn’t watch that part.

K: But you could hear it, and you have seen

C: Yes, I have.

K: Tons and tons of vogueing videos.

C: I have, yes.

K: And tons of lessons on vogueing.

C: So, and – it’s weird for me for you to be working remotely. Because I worked remotely – I think I’ve mentioned maybe three or fourth times before – for a long, long time.

K: I think it’s been over ten years now you’ve been working remotely.

C: Yeah. I think it’s almost fifteen years that I worked remotely.

K: Yeah.

C: And I worked remotely even before we met. I started working remotely when I was 17.

K: But I think it’s been a solid ten years.

C: Yeah.

K: I think you’ve been working off-and-on for ohh… this is so bad. I think… that… you… are 44?

C: You are correct.

K: Yeah?

C: Yeah.

K: No way.

C: Yes.

K: I started at 48, and then I was like, “no. I’m 51 at the time of recording this. So, he’s 6 years younger than me except for half of the year. So, 51 minus 7 is… 46? No. Now I just can’t do math. It’s 46.”

C: It’s 44, and you had it. 

K: So, how did I lose it that quick?

C: I don’t know how you lost it that quick.

K: Like, 7… 51 minus 7… is 6.

C: No because if you put 6 plus 7 you get 13.

K: That’s right. How am I messing that up?

C: I’m not sure, but that’s very interesting.

K: Right? Because, just, for me, 46 feels like the right age.

C: Yeah.

K: So, because of my dyslexia, if I get a number stuck in my head, I won’t be able to do any math around it.

C: Yeah.

K: So, I can do basic math unless I believe something. Because I believe you’re 46 or 48.

C: Yeah, I’m not that old, yet.

K: Yeah. Which, usually, I’m making you younger, so it’s interesting

C: Usually, you are. Usually, you’re like, “are you 35?”

K: Yeah, so I was like, “I know he’s in his 40s. I know he’s not 41. So, he must be 48.”

C: (laughs)

K: Like, that makes no sense.

C: That’s an interesting jump.

K: Yeah. So, I was like, that makes no sense, so he’s 46. Then I was like, “do math. What plus 40 – what, 40 plus 7 equals 51?” And I was able to do that correctly.

C: Yeah.

K: But I can’t do the subtraction correctly.

C: It’s a valid way to do it to do the addition.

K: Yeah.

C: But – so, I… we’ve been here 13 years. The first year, I did not work remotely. And, then, after my PHD, there was like… six months that I worked in person.

K: Yeah.

C: But, other than that, I’ve worked remotely.

K: Yeah. In Japan.

C: In Japan.

K: Because you worked in person in the U.S. and then there was a few years that you didn’t work, and we just

C: There was a few years when I first came to California that I worked remotely… most days. That I would go to – from San Francisco to Sausalito some days, but… like, four days a week I would work remotely.

K: So, can I ask you a really personal question?

C: Y – of course.

K: So, riddle me this: why is COVID making you have employment insecurity?

C: I think because I’m exposed to the economics of what it’s doing to everybody. Like

K: But you’ve always worked remotely.

C: I have.

K: So, you’re experienced at working remotely.

C: Yeah.

K: You know the demand for remote work that existed pre-COVID.

C: Yes.

K: It’s expanded in a COVID world.

C: Yes.

K: But it’s really causing a lot of work insecurity and anxiety. So, the reason that I’m talking about this is the therapist in me.

C: Right.

K: And I just don’t want everyone to think that… based on any given situation that anyone will feel any type of way about their work situation. Like, we both feel super privileged that we can work and super happy that we can work and super grateful for the income that we have. With that said, it’s not without psychological and emotional impact.

C: Yes.

K: So, yeah. Riddle me this. Asking for a friend.

C: I think what I fear is the backlash, and Twitter disability has been talking about this a lot. That suddenly all these accommodations are available – like remote work for everybody.

K: Mhm.

C: And, when COVID is “over”, and I’m putting that in quotes because I think tha

K: It’s never going to be over.

C: Yeah.

K: The plague is still around.

C: Right. That companies are going to veer really hard in the other direction and say, “nobody gets to work remote. We’re done with remote working.”

K: How would your company do that for you?

C: My company would not do that for me.

K: Right. Because they’re not even in the same country as us.

C: Correct. So, I just have general worry about this kind of thing. I think about Marissa Mayer – who was the CEO of Yahoo and oversaw its downfall – and one of the first things that she did when she came on was she revoked all of the remote working. She said that everybody has to come to the office.

K: Okay.

C: Because, you know, the hallway conversations – the so-called “hallway conversations” – are so important to… culture and everything.

K: Okay.

C: Yeah, so – I mean, Yahoo collapsed through a series of

K: I’m shocked that you’re calling out someone by name. So, you’re stirred about this.

C: She got a 45-million-dollar severance package. She can handle it.

K: (laughs) Because you’re like – so, what I’m laughing at is I see you just all stirred up – like you are fired up  but I do not think that a single, solitary listener would hear the rage in your voice. The rage and outrage in your voice. Because, like, this is Chad fired up, you all. (laughs)

C: Well, I just think

K: He’s stirred. He’s mad. He really is. I shouldn’t be laughing, but you all know I’m a bad wife. You all know I laugh at Chad’s – I don’t laugh at Chad when he feels angry, but I laugh when I’m like, “what? You caught me so by surprise with this.” Like, I had no idea you were this mad at Yahoo.

C: Yeah. And I don’t – I didn’t ever work for them or anything, so I don’t know why. But

K: Right. And you don’t even use Yahoo. You use Gmail.

C: Yeah.

K: So, like

C: I’m not sure why it upset. But I feel like…

K: Of all the companies that are doing – the thing that trips me out with you is why are you never pissed at Google?

C: Okay, so I think the thing with Yahoo is that, when we were in California, we lived across the street from them.

K: We didn’t live directly across the street.

C: Not directly across the street, but like two blocks away.

K: But we also lived two blocks away from Google.

C: No, we lived a lot further from Google.

K: Not when they moved their headquarters.

C: No, they were Mountain View, and we were miles away from them.

K: Mm. I thought they took up part of Great America’s parking lot.

C: No, that’s Ericsson.

K: Okay. Okay, so… what does us living down the street from them have to do with you being mad at them now?

C: That they were always on my mind.

K: (laughs)

C: And I think… I think, too, it’s not

K: (laughs) Wait, you’re saying, if I had been thinking about you for 15 years, and you do something offensive, I’m going to go hard.

C: Exactly.

K: I’m going to go in. Like, oh, don’t catch my – don’t catch my eye and then do something wrong.

C: I think it was the specific justification that in-person work was somehow more valid and more creative than remote work.

K: Well, I think that the current company you work for

C: Yes.

K: And go look at Chad on LinkedIn because we don’t say their name.

C: Yeah.

K: I don’t know why I was like, “go look it up on LinkedIn” all aggressive.

(laughter)

C: Yeah. Why are you going hard?

K: Okay? I think because the energy is now, “let’s go in” that’s the energy now, like

C: Yeah, so

K: We’re going to go hard about everything. Let’s go hard if you’re going to go hard.

C: The company that I work for now has two offices, but they also have a number of people who have always worked remotely. We’ve got, you know, people in South Africa and Germany and

K: And I think they handle it really well. They’re doing like… what’s the thing called?

C: All Eyes?

K: No. Like… not the specific meetings, but they have a certain business model that they’re following that I can never remember the name of. I always want to call it the AFID way, and I know it’s not AFID.

C: They’re a B-corp.

K: No, not the B-corp thing.

C: Oh, that’s not a business model. You’re thinking of agile – the agile methodology.

K: Yes.

C: That’s a development methodology. That’s not a business model.

K: Yeah, but it was developed by… industrial psychology.

C: No. Not this one. A lot of those models are. This one was not. This one was

K: It was not an industrial psych thing?

C: No, it’s not.

K: I think everything’s industrial psych.

C: You do, yes.

K: I know nothing about industrial psychology except for that people are getting paid fat bank for it.

C: (laughs) But you have to travel.

K: Yeah, and so… like – because when I was signing up for – when I signed up to do my PHD, everyone was like, “you should do industrial psych” and I’m like, “no. I’m going to do general because I’m a general psychologist.” Always have been. General therapist. Always have been.

C: Yeah.

K: It’s a lot more work to do general. And, like, at the first… go around – what was it – the residencies that I went to, they were like, “general” – almost everybody was industrial psych.

C: Mhm.

K: Because, at the time, there were like job listings of between 90,000 and 150,000 a year all over the world.

C: Yeah.

K: And, like, Dubai was throwing – and it wasn’t just Dubai – it was Dubai, South Africa, and South America.

C: Mhm.

K: I was like… I was reading those job packages, and all of them came with personal security.

C: Personal security, kidnapping and ransom insurance.

K: Yes. And I’m like, “I do not want a job that comes with kidnap and ransom insurance.”

C: (laughs)

K: I do not want my finger sent to anyone.

C: Okay.

K: I saw that – what was that movie with what’s her name? Meg Ryan and the blonde dude. Proof of Life. I saw Proof of Life.

C: Okay.

K: (laughs)

C: I don’t think I did. Because you’re like, “what’s that movie with what’s her name and the blonde guy?”

K: Yeah.

C: Like, wow, that’s specific.

K: Right? It was so detailed. Like, everybody else got it but you. (laughs)

C: Yeah.

K: And I also saw Man on Fire.

C: Mm. I did see that one.

K: Right?

C: With Denzel, right?

K: Yeah. And, like, Denzel ain’t coming to save me.

C: No, he’s not coming to save you.

K: I wish he would, though. Like, if something bad happened.

C: (laughs)

K: Wouldn’t it be awesome to have like… Denzel just at the ready? I know Denzel can’t do all of the things, but there’s this other T.V. show called Kidnap and Ransom where there’s this guy who goes around – he’s British – and he goes around to different countries where people have been kidnapped and negotiates their safe release. And he’s like, “this is a business for them.” He tells all of them so calmly. “This is a business transaction. This is a business deal. They’re in the business of keeping them alive.” Meanwhile, they’re like out in the jungle somewhere living off of insects.

C: (laughs)

K: And I’m like, no.

C: They’re all naked and afraid.

K: Right? Naked and afraid. You know I love me some naked and afraid.

C: I know you do.

K: So, that’s why I don’t know why anybody would want to do industrial psychology.

C: Well, and I think right now that that’s really tough because you can’t – it’s something that’s really hard to do remotely because it requires going to a company, observing how people interact and everything.

K: Yeah.

C: And I think that you can structure work, even at large companies, so that people can work remotely.

K: Yeah.

C: But I think that… you know… to do that, you have to be very intentional about it.

K: Yeah.

C: And it does make it much harder to observe. And I am glad that I work for a company that is not… trying to spy on me.

K: Mm.

C: That’s the thing I found most disturbing about so many people going to work at home. Tech workers in particular.

K: Yeah. Because they’re imposing just stuff that I don’t think is legal.

C: A lot of it’s not.

K: Because some companies are wanting keystroke on people’s home computers.

C: Yeah. They have bossware. So, I was reading a thing about “bossware” is what they’re calling it, generally. And some of it’s like… offers options to install it secretly and have it hide so that the person doesn’t know that it’s running. And, like, advertises as a feature that it will capture their passwords and their private messages and…

K: You know I’m super paranoid about all of that because the device that I use to work with my clients – I only use it to work with my clients.

C: Yes.

K: And, when I’m not working with my clients, it is not anywhere near me. It’s locked up. It’s in a locked, sound-proof environment because I am so worried that someone’s going to somehow install something on me. Because I work for people that – so…

C: Yeah.

K: I work for people that have, like… serious, serious jobs. They, like, work for the Department of Defense, and they’re always telling me, like… I don’t know if they’re trying to do some kind of power abuse or manipulation – I feel like some of them are, and I feel like some of them aren’t. But I have had clients that are obsessed with, like, installing security features on my electronics and installing security features in my office and, just like, really obsessed with my security.

C: Yeah.

K: Some of them are terrified that it’s going to get out that they’re my client. And they want to make sure that I’m hack-proof. And I tell them honestly… nobody’s hack-proof.

C: No. But I set up all of your electronics, and…

K: Yeah, but to be – I’m HIPAA compliant, which is an APA thing, google it. (laughs) That was so rude. I was like – first, I’m sending people to LinkedIn. Now I’m telling people to google stuff. But you got really mad because there was one client that was obsessed – obsessed with setting up cameras in my office.

C: Yeah.

K: And I just – I had no idea, like – and I kept telling them, “how is that secure? For, one, completely violates any ethical guidelines” – not having cameras, but having a client set them up.

C: Right.

K: Because then you can never, ever lock them out of the system. You can never guarantee to lock them out of the system.

C: Well, not just that, but… under the APA, you – you function under the Japanese Psychological Association rules – but under the American Psychological Association rules, you’re not – you’re not allowed to have clients work for you. It’s a serious vio

K: Yeah. With the J – with the Japanese Psychological Association, you’re not allowed to have clients work for you.

C: Okay.

K: Because, if a client works for you, then you can coerce them into being

C: Yeah, it’s as serious a violation as a romantic relationship.

K: Yeah. Because… it – the power dynamic. So, like, if I give someone a homework assignment, and they’re my employee, and they don’t do a homework assignment, then I could fire them.

C: Mhm.

K: that doesn’t work. People have to have agency and autonomy. And the same thing with objectivity. Like, when I lose my objectivity – when I start caring whether or not clients do their homework – like when I get pissed that a client didn’t do their homework, then it’s time for me to… do a self-evaluation and see if I’ve formed an inappropriate attachment or relationship. So, it’s not just sexual in nature.

C: Yeah, yeah.

K: It can be emotional or, you know, performing – putting yourself in a role. And some – some of my clients are coming to me for reparenting.

C: Mhm.

K: And that can kind of blur the lines when I’m doing reparenting.

C: Yeah, I know you’re very careful about that.

K: Yeah. And, so, for me… I feel more vulnerable doing… working remote because I feel more vulnerable that people will get into my home. And it kind of disturbs my peace.

C: Yeah.

K: On the days that I see clients, I feel like my peace is super disturbed. Because people are seeing the interior of my home. Which, where I sit, the interior that they’re seeing is a beige curtain.

C: Yes.

K: So, like… literally seeing a beige curtain. Although one client – the camera did fall, and they saw the kitchen, and it was completely messy. And I was like – I have a really cool relationship with that client – and I was like, “ahhh. Eek. You saw my messy – my messy kitchen.” And, like, they’re completely fun and cool, and they’re like, “look at how mess my kitchen is.” And it was just a really fun moment. But if it had been someone else who… would care that my kitchen was dirty

C: Mhm.

K: That… could damage the relationship.

C: Yeah.

K: Because everybody has an image of what my home life is. Very few of them have a correct image.

C: Right.

K: But having them in my home, I’m super careful about how… I position it. I’m super careful not to knock it over. And have everything I need for the session set up. And… afterwards, it’s harder to decompress.

C: Yeah.

K: It makes it a lot harder to decompress.

C: That’s what a lot of my coworkers have been expressing – who aren’t used to working remotely – is that they feel like there’s no separation between home and work because they’re already home.

K: I feel like I’ve invited every single client that I’ve worked with – I’ve invited their emotional energy into the house.

C: Mmm.

K: I don’t feel like I’ve invited them. I feel like I’ve invited their emotional energy.

C: No, I get what you’re saying because there would be times that you would finish your clients – because I can see your busy-free calendar, so I can see when you’ve got appointments. Not the details of them, just that you have an appointment.

K: And you knock before, you know, breaking the barrier.

C: Yeah. But when you were going to your office, you would sometimes call me after your last appointment and say, “hey, I’m going to take thirty minutes to unwind and get out of that headspace before I come home.”

K: Yeah. And now I’m like… I’m out of words. I’m not saying anything. I’m just completely shut down. So, that’s like… the negative of it. But a huge positive of it – oh my gosh, if you’re my clients, don’t get mad at me for this – but sometimes I put something in the oven

(laughter)

K: At the beginning of my last session because I’m starving. I’m just so hungry.

C: Okay, not the euphemism. Literally in the oven.

K: Yeah, no, nothing sexual. No Twitter After Dark on this. Like… literally, I put food in the oven because what I can do is, sometimes, I have enough time to prep

C: Yeah.

K: The food before my second to last client. And then, in between my second to last client and my final client, I can put it in the oven to bake. And, so, sometimes… yes. You caught me. I’m baking something. I have had clients be like, “what was that sound?” and I was like, “that’s my oven.”

C: “Notifying me that my food is ready.”

K: Yeah. Because I do… it – my office space, now, that I am using is in the biggest part of the house because we have two offices that sit across each other.

C: Yeah.

K: And the two offices that sit across from each other, we cannot – it doesn’t provide enough sound barriers. So, like, if you’re on a call, I can hear you.

C: Yeah.

K: And if I’m on a call, you can hear me. And my ocean sounds, for you – because the sensory issues with people on the spectrum – is that sometimes they have like super-duper bionic hearing. And, for you… one of the ways that your autism expresses itself is that you have noise sensitivity.

C: I do have noise sensitivity, yeah.

K: And, so the level that I would need to have the ocean sounds up in the hallway, it would echo throughout the house and just drive you to distraction. You would want to

C: Yeah.

K: You would want to self-harm so that you wouldn’t have to hear it.

C: And not every Japanese apartment is set up this way, but we have a pretty typical apartment for one built in the early 2000s in that there’s a door that basically cuts the apartment in half so that one half has… the living room and the kitchen

K: Yeah.

C: And maybe a bedroom. And the other half has a shower room and laundry and a bedroom.

K: Yeah. And, so, ours has two bedrooms in the front.

C: Yeah.

K: So, we’re able to have two doors in between us, and now I can’t hear you when you’re on a call, and you can’t hear me when I’m on a call. But it does mean that I get the kitchen.

C: Yeah.

K: And, so, I usually, like… go and tell you and Rasta, “hey, if you guys want to eat, you’ve got” – sometimes it’s like, “if you want something to eat, you’ve got ten minutes. Go. Now.”

C: Yeah.

K: And… sometimes it’s really hard on you guys because you don’t have access to water. You don’t have access to food.

C: I have access to water. The water from the bathroom is potable.

K: Yeah, but you guys prefer the tap that’s designed for water.

C: Yeah.

K: So, now, you guys like gathering your snacks, and I think how you set up in the morning is completely different than how it was when I’m not here.

C: Yeah, it is. Yeah.

K: And… I know that the way I set up is completely different. And something that I had before that I don’t have now is that I used to have the space that I use therapy in for thirty minutes before the first client arrived.

C: Right.

K: And, now, I don’t have that space.

C: Mhm.

K: And… I think I’m very… that weird very lucky that your job is like… “if I see or hear your partner – ignore everybody’s background” so I can play music and do all of the, like, cleanse – mental and emotional cleansing that I do in between transitioning for clients. I have, I’ll admit, I have taken a nap in between clients. Like, a power ten-minute nap, which I don’t do at my office.

C: Yeah.

K: That I do here because, hello, I have access to my bed.

C: Well, and your scheduling: you schedule clients thirty minutes apart.

K: Yeah.

C: You always have, so that that gives

K: And I run on time now.

C: Yeah.

K: I’m, like, more on time now than I was – it’s – because it’s easier to transition.

C: But it means that if you have a cancellation or a gap when you had a one-hour slot reserved, you’ve got two hours.

K: Yeah.

C: Well, and if you can’t take a nap in two hours, can you really even call yourself a person who naps?

K: Right. And the other day, I was like, “sweet.” I got a cancellation, and I was like, “sweet. I can watch Drag Race Canada.”

C: (laughs)

K: And I was dabbing it out. I literally just, like, chilled and like… had munchies and watched Drag Race Canada. And I was like, “this is so awesome. Should I schedule myself this way?” I’m like, I would not be able to do this at work.

C: No.

K: I just don’t have the headspace for it. So, at – at the office, when I have those types of cancellations, I immediately just do PHD work.

C: Yeah.

K: I’m just in such a different mindset and a different – it’s just such a different modality for me. Something I find interesting is… the amount of pressure I’m receiving from clients to go back to in-person sessions.

C: Mhm.

K: Like, I receive, on average, four to five requests a week.

C: I wonder for people – because I know the privacy: we’ve had to work out how to give each other privacy for work. So, I wonder for people who normally come see you in your office if they’re having to… struggle with pri- getting privacy for their sessions.

K: No, these are people that live alone.

C: Oh, okay.

K: That just want the in-person experience.

C: Well, then, the alternative hypothesis is that they’re lonely, so they want the in-person experience.

K: (laughs)

C: I can come up with a reason for anything.

K: So, it’s a mix. My office is a particular experience.

C: Yes, it is.

K: And… the people who come to see me obviously enjoy that particular experience. And they miss that experience.

C: Yeah.

K: so, I’m not a hugger. I do not hug my clients. You have to ask me for a hug, and it’s rare that I give them.

C: Like, who died?

K: What?

C: Who died? Who died that you deserve a hug?

(laughter)

K: No, it’s not that bad. It’s like – but my clients know I’m not a hugging

C: Yeah.

K: And the distance I put between me and clients – the compassion thing – my compassion move is I move a box of tissues next to them to show I care.

C: You keep tissues stocked. That’s

K: Yes, I do. Because I care. But… what I find interesting is that… at the beginning of all of this, I had a client wanting to come in and see me that could have saw me privately who had just returned from the Philippines.

C: Mhm.

K: And… right when everything was popping off, and I first went into quarantine.

C: Yeah.

K: And then I have other clients that are like, “yeah, I’m going to come from Tokyo to see you.” Like… why would – in case you don’t know, Tokyo is a hot spot.

C: Yeah.

K: That hasn’t ever calmed down. It’s been a hot spot the entire time.

C: And it’s a two-hour train ride from here.

K: Yes. And it’s super expensive.

C: Yeah.

K: And I’m just like… “were you always coming from Tokyo?” Because I’ll admit… a weak spot for me is – on the intake form, I don’t always pay attention to where people live.

C: Mhm.

K: I don’t – their address is listed there, but the reason that it’s listed there is, like, if I don’t hear from them, and if they don’t show up, and a safety check needs to be done.

C: Yeah.

K: That, you know, I have an address to be like, “hey can you do a safety check at this address” if I’m dealing – and not every client my mind goes there, but some clients my mind does. But… I’m like, wow. One, I had no idea that, like, this person was taking the night bus to come see me. Mind blown there. And they build like a whole weekend around

C: Coming to see you.

K: Yeah. So, it was a whole thing, and that whole rhythm is thrown off. And, so… each client has their own reason for why they want to see m in person.

C: Mhm.

K: And they all know that I have hereditary coproporphyria and lupus, which are two… really – HCP is a super-rare blood disorder.

C: Yeah. We talked about it last episode.

K: Yeah. And… lupus, which is an inflammation disorder. So – another blood disorder – so they know that I’m at high risk. And it starts to feel really pointed and personal when clients aren’t taking the fact that my doctor has put me on quarantine, and my doctor has told me shelter in place, and my doctor has told me not to see clients in person.

C: Yeah.

K: And they all know this. And it feels really, really personal. And, like, when I go out in the world – because I have to go to doctor’s appointments – and I see people not wearing a face mask, it feels really personal.

C: Yeah.

K: Because I feel like they don’t care if they’re going to kill me. Like, literally me. I’m not thinking of some hypothetical person.

C: Right.

K: I’m, like, I’m the person when you don’t vaccinate your kid that’s going to die. I’m the person that, when you

C: You’re the person who relies on herd immunity because you don’t have your own

K: Yeah.

C: Fully functioning immune system. It’s a little bit hyperactive, so you take

K: Yeah. (laughs)

C: You take medicines that calm it down, but it’s a balance.

K: Yeah. And… too, the way that my body reacts to… antibiotics

C: Yeah.

K: My body reacts really negatively to antivirals and antibiotics of any kind. Which I know from when I had MRSA.

C: Yeah. We’ve talked about that before.

K: Yeah. So, these things that – the outbreaks that happen, they do impact me. And, so, I – I have no idea when I’m coming out of quarantine.

C: Mhm.

K: And when I – so, I completely get when people are feeling cagey, but here, in Japan, the people that I see – they’re going to work.

C: Yeah.

K: They’re going to restaurants. They’re taking vacations. They’re not… sheltering in place.

C: Right.

K: And, when they don’t shelter in place, it means that I can’t stop sheltering in place.

C: Yeah.

K: So, I have to work remote indefinitely. Until – well, until certain things happen that would probably be boring as hell for you guys, so I’m not going to detail that. So, for me, working remote… has been a mix of there’s some gains and some losses. Just like working in an office; there’s some gains and some losses. And… the one thing I’m super grateful for and humbled and honored by is my clients that have stuck with me.

C: Mhm.

K: Even though they don’t really like it – like I have one client

C: But they’ve stuck with you.

K: Yeah, they hate it, and they tell me, “I hate this.” At the beginning of every session. And I’m like, “I completely get it. I’m sorry. Thank you for caring enough to do this.” And they’re like, “you’re worth it.” And that always feel so sweet. Because now it’s like a running joke that we do.

C: Mhm.

K: And, like, if they don’t say it, I’m like, “wait a minute.” “I still hate this.”

C: (laughs)

K: “You’re still worth it.” And it’s so cute and sweet, and it’s just like a little fun thing that we do. So, I’m finding some interesting… fun things are happening.

C: Yeah.

K: Like, I have another client that usually we spend 15 minutes after their session just, like… geeking out because we have the same interests outside of – if I wasn’t their therapist, we’d probably be really great friends because we have the same hobbies and social interests. And, so, I’m able to do like… when they have the space for it, like 15 minutes geek out on something.

C: Because you allow that gap.

K: Yeah. And… there’s no danger of someone walking up the stairs.

C: Ah, yeah. Yeah. I wasn’t thinking about that.

K: Yeah. So, they’re not at risk of having their confidentiality violated if we keekee for fifteen minutes.

C: Or for 29 because you could just hang up and call the next person.

K: Yeah. And then I have a couple of other clients that I’m able to end right – like, to the minute on time because they like to end on time and then do weird, random things to go over time.

C: Mm.

K: And, so, it’s really hard to get them to transition out of the office into the world. But it’s not difficult to get them to end their session.

C: right.

K: I’m finding it interesting the things that – I feel like I’m getting to know them in a more nuanced way.

C: I do think it’s a different modality. I – I think I’ve worked maybe four years in person throughout my entire career.

K: Mm. Did you like it?

C: No.

K: (laughs)

C: I shou

K: Something I think is cool is you’re out as autistic at this job.

C: Yes, I am.

K: You’re out as autistic, epileptic, and I don’t know if you told them about your AS.

C: I’ve told them I use a cane. I haven’t gone into it being As.

K: Ah, you didn’t talk about your eczema. That would be weird. Those two are completely unrelated to work.

C: Yeah.

K: Yeah. But I would think sometimes they could tell.

C: Well, I – I talked about using a cane because the products we make. I was explaining how I use them.

K: Mmm. Yeah.

C: And how I – like, only use things that I can use one-handed.

K: Mhm.

C: Because I’ve got a cane in my other hand.

K: Yeah.

C: So, it has come up in a relevant context.

K: How does it feel being out?

C: It’s a… relief. It’s a really supportive… environment because… not only do I feel comfortable saying, “hey, I need the afternoon for this or that” but I’ve seen other people do it.

K: Yeah.

C: I’ve seen people at all levels of the company do it. The company doesn’t have tons of levels

K: (laughs)

C: But I’ve seen people at my level, which is I have a manager. I’m not managing anybody.

K: Yeah.

C: But I’ve also seen managers and even the founders sometimes say… “I’m having a hard day. I’m going to take the day.”

K: Yeah. So, I think in terms of work environment goes that there’s a lot of transparency.

C: Yeah.

K: I think there’s a lot of communication. I think that, to me – I feel like you guys have more intimacy and communication because it has to be thought out. Because you guys are literally a global team spread throughout the globe working towards a single aim.

C: I think that, for the people who are working remotely, that this – that the office being legally shut, like it’s not legal for the office to be open, so everybody must work remotely because it’s possible.

K: Yes.

C: Because I work for an Australian company. I think, for them, they feel less connected.

K: Mm.

C: But, for me, I feel more connected because now we’re all interacting on – through the media that I have always interacted with them through.

K: I don’t feel like your interaction has increased.

C: My interaction has not increased, but everybody else is interacting in the same way, so before, when we’d a meeting for example, it would be me on the screen and everybody else around the table.

K: Oh, okay.

C: So, I was the odd one out.

K: Whose dog used to come to the office? Are people missing the dog?

C: A lot of people

K: Are people missing other people’s dogs?

C: I am not sure.

K: And did anyone ever bring a cat to the office?

C: I don’t know that either. Because one of my – one of my close – one of the people on my team has dogs, and, so, we see his dogs all the time wandering around behind him when we’re doing meetings and things.

K: Yeah, but I wonder if other people like – because, for me, I love other people’s pets.

C: I think maybe.

K: Because I don’t want to have to clean up after them, I don’t want to – but I love people who have pets.

C: Because in California, I worked at Autodesk, and… I worked in the office like two days a week.

K: Mhm.

C: And they had a… pro-dogs policy. So, everybody had their own private office that you could bring your dog as long as it was trained and well-behaved.

K: And did other people miss people’s dogs.

C: Other people would go by and visit…

K: The dog?

C: The dog. Yeah.

K: Hm.

C: So, I imagine that there are people missing other people’s dogs.

K: Yeah, I think that’s so weird. I don’t get attached to other people’s pets just like I don’t get attached to other people’s kids because they can just take them away from you any time they want.

C: Yeah.

K: So

C: Rude.

K: Right?

C: (laughs)

K: (laughs) That sounds so random, but I had a nephew that was living with me off and on until I was like… “I think maybe this nephew should live with me full-time” and then they were just like, “I’m taking this nephew away from you.”

C: Yeah.

K: I was like, “whatever.” So, that taught me the only kid you can keep is your own.

C: Mhm.

K: You can’t just go around taking other people’s kids.

C: Okay. Get in trouble for that.

K: Right? Even though if it would be a better environment – I’m just kidding. I don’t want to kidnap people’s kids. I’ve no desire to kidnap other people’s kids. I feel like we got clear and out from ours and now the pandemic hit, and he’s back living with us.

C: I did see a thing about the new boomerang children and how it’s different.

K: (laughs)

C: It was a whole thing about people in exactly our situation where their adult children were back home because of the pandemic. Because

K: Yeah.

C: Otherwise, they couldn’t see each other.

K: Yeah, but luckily that same division that we create – so, I feel like you have less division and less privacy during the workday, but in the evening we have just as much privacy

C: Yeah, we do.

K: Because he’s sequestered to the front of the house, and we get the back of the house.

C: Yeah.

K: And, so… I think of it was front and back based on what’s closest to the front door.

C: Yes. That’s why it’s called the front door, hello.

K: (laughs) Yeah. And, so… that makes me feel really good and really comfy. So, that’s us talking about the change in working remote. And, if you want to keep the conversation going, you can hit us up on social media or follow us over to the Patreon.

C: Remotely, of course.

K: Yes. Remotely. Follow us remotely. Shelter in place. Wear a face mask. Wash your hands.

(laughter)

K: Bye.

C: Bye.