K: So, lately I’ve been thinking about the pressure to have religion in the United States versus the pressure to have religion in Japan, and I think it would be helpful for the folks who aren’t in Japan, or maybe even some that are – the folks who are not in Japan and maybe even some that are in Japan to understand the religions that I’ve come into contact with. And then maybe you can share the religions you’ve come into contact with in Japan. So, there’s one that I don’t know the name of – it’s where people believe that they can turn into foxes, and they worship foxes. And… it’s a sect of Buddhism, but I don’t know what sect. Do you?

C: I don’t because there’s a lot of sects of Buddhism. Like… there’s the major branches of Buddhism.

K: Mhm.

C: And like the Great Wheel and the Lesser Wheel and Maha Yana and all of that, but, even in Japanese Buddhism, there’s a lot more things – and a lot of schisms and, historically, wars, and…

K: Yeah.

C: There’s Pureland Buddhism which believes in heaven, and there’s other Buddhism which says that belief in heaven is heretical, and…

K: Yeah.

C: So, it’s as splintered in Japan as Christianity is in the United States.

K: Yes. And then there’s Shintoism which doesn’t – which is splintered, but I don’t think as splintered as Buddhism is in Japan. 

C: I think Shintoism is, by its nature… more resistant to splintering because it’s got a lot of animism in it and ancestor worship.

K: Yeah.

C: And, so, it’s really hard to say you’re doing it wrong because you can just say, “well, this is the way my ancestors want it done.”

K: Yeah. And… then… there’s Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and, like, revivalist Christianity – so, like, the types of Christianity I’ve experienced here in Japan is… Southern Baptist, Catholicism, and then, sort of like… hip like “we play guitar and have a really cool band” type of Christianity. I don’t know what that’s called.

C: I’m not sure, either. And there’s a large component of Christianity that came over via Korea that’s got a different flavor that I’m not as familiar with because neither of us speak Korean. But I know that Korea

K: Yeah. I’m a little bit familiar with it because I have some Korean clients that are Christian, and I think of it as sometimey Christianity because – and that’s just because of my exposure to it where, like, there’s deeply held, passionate Christian views, and then sometimes there’s no religious views expressed at all. 

C: Yeah, just the same as in the U.S.

K: And then I – I’ve also come across, like… fervent Christianity that’s anti-LGBTQIA+ that, if you’re not a Christian, you’re going to hell, if you don’t believe – like, fire and brimstone Christianity.

C: Yeah.

K: I’ve also experienced here in Japan. 

C: Well, and there’s cultic Christianity where they try and get you to come to their group without telling you what it is, and then when you get there, they’re like, “surprise, we’ve got some Jesus whether or not you want it.” 

K: Yeah.

C: And then there’s a group that – they’re not doing it now because of COVID – but used to stand on the corner near our apartment, because we live near a university, and proselytize to people passing by and try and hand out bibles and stuff.

K: Yeah. So, my experience of religion is that there’s – that religion is as diverse in Japan as it is in the United States.

C: Absolutely. I’ve met Mormons and Jehova’s Witnesses both here. So… and Christians of all stripes – both foreigners and Japanese people. 

K: And what I found interesting is that… the… drive to – so, I’m an out Atheist. I wasn’t always an out Atheist, for business reasons, which I’m not proud of – but I feel like I have… grown. Because, for me, it was quite… shocking when I was starting my therapy practice how many of my clients were… “we have everybody who’s not Christian.”

C: Yeah.

K: And then, for me, the straw that broke the camel’s back was when… a racist Southern Baptist who could not afford my rates needed my help.

C: Mhm.

K: And they continued to be racist. They continued to be fire and brimstone Southern Baptist, anti-LGBTQIA+, anti-blackness, anti-feminism, anti- everything that I believed in and stood for.

C: Mhm.

K: And… I was the difference between their child functioning or not. And I had to make the decision, like… do I punish this child for the ignorance of their parent, or do I give this child charity because of my beliefs? 

C: Yeah.

K: And then, to me, it just felt like oh sweet irony. Like… (laughs) because you hear so much about Christian charity and it’s such BS for the most part. I find – not all Christians – but that Christian absolutely. Absolutely. And, so… for me, I’ve had to… work through bu – so, for me, it was all business. It was about making money. It was about making my business thrive. It was about deciding… am I going to still be me? And I think that I succumbed to the pressure to pretend.

C: Yeah.

K: And… I’m not proud of the fact that I passed as a Christian. I’m not proud of the fact that I pass as somebody that didn’t have any strong political views. And I’m to proud of the fact that I did anything to support or help people with racist views without challenging those racist views.

C: Mhm.

K: Like, you can’t have both, so now that I’m fully myself and more fully secure… and I find that it comes with permanent residency. I don’t tolerate that anymore. I let my clients know that I am an atheist. All of my social media – I’m obviously an atheist. And, so, recently… our social media has changed.

C: Yes.

K: And… we’ve lost some followers and gained some followers, so I think, net, overall, we’ve stayed the same. But I’m using my privilege and my platform to speak out on things that matter to me and to retweet voices that I want amplified and messages that I want amplified. And… with COVID, there’s just been such an ugly rise of the ugliest of what’s in people for some people. And then there’s also been the rise of beauty in people, and, so, I’m choosing to elevate and promote what I think is beautiful. And I don’t exclude… any particular faith. But, for me, I find that the reason I’m atheist first and foremost is because I’m feminist.

C: Mhm.

K: And I don’t believe that – I have yet to find a faith, even the Wiccan faith which is supposed to be about witchcraft and female empowerment – I feel like even with Wiccan faith has been tainted and spoiled and poisoned by… rape culture and the patriarchy.

C: I feel like… there’s no such thing as faith. There’s people who have faith, and there are organizations based on faith, but faith is not its own thing. So, you can’t say, “I disagree with faith.” You could say, like, “this person, the way that they express the faith that they feel… agrees with me or disagrees with me or is something that I supposed or something that I don’t.” So… I was thinking about this when you said “Christian charity” which… I feel like a lot of people want to impart it a special meaning beyond charity.

K: Yeah.

C: And I can’t hear “Christian charity” without hearing it in an ironic sense.

K: Yeah because, like, it’s… a sin – like, it immediately is no longer charity if you’re doing it to get into heaven.

C: Right.

K: Like, if it’s quote unquote “Christian charity” that’s what the bible says. 

C: That you have your rewards.

K: That you have to do it, yeah, with no reward. And if you think that you’re going to get a heavenly reward, then you’ve already ruined it.

C: Yeah.

K: You’ve already spoiled it. So, saying “Christian charity” – you’ve already spoilt it.

C: So, I have known a lot of people who are Christian and who I think of as good people who are very charitable, but I feel like… it’s not despite their Christianity. It’s not because of their Christianity. It’s just alongside their Christianity.

K: Okay.

C: In the same way that charity is one of the five pillars of Islam, and I have known… Muslims who are… uncharitable and fairly terrible people, and I have known Muslims who are extremely generous and some of the best people I know.

K: And I’ve known people who are… what they consider to be ethnically Muslim or culturally Muslim in the same way that I consider myself to be ethnically and culturally Jewish.

C: Mhm.

K: But I don’t… practice the faith of Judaism.

C: Right.

K: So, for me, I found that, in the United States, because I went through my own coming out battle in the United States really young – I came out as everything I was at 16, and that was the power of my emancipation. I really took it literally, and I emancipated the shit out of myself. 

C: (laughs)

K: I was sharing every single view I had because I was financially independent.

C: Yeah.

K: And I felt like… there are no more shackles on me. I am breaking free of my bondage. I am stopping the cycle of bondage. And I took that really seriously: stopping the cycle of bondage.

C: Your views on everything from religion to how fuzzy it is acceptable for a banana to be.

K: Yes. Yes. And, so, like… food waste, water consumption – every single view I had, I lived fully to the Nth. And I felt a lot of push-back and a lot of blowback and a low of pressure in the United States to change, but I didn’t care because I was emancipated.

C: Mhm.

K: And then I feel like I kind of had to go through that process all over again when I came to Japan. Because I so wanted to stay small, stay quiet, be successful, and – in the way that I was seeking success, I was shackling myself and putting myself back in bondage. Because I do not suffer racism in the United States at all. Not even the width, the hint, or any of it. Like, if you ask me what I am in the United States, I will tell you I am a human being and pip, pip, off you go.

C: Yeah. 

K: Like, we will never need to speak again because I view that, if you’re interested in my ethnicity, that that is implicit bias and – probably, most likely – racism. 

C: Mhm.

K: Because I’m human. That’s what I am. I’m human. So, for me, I was like… if it’s valid, it will come out.

C: I feel like there’s a big difference between, “what is your ethnicity?” and “how has your ethnicity affected you?” Like, one is asking for this… isolated piece of information without any context of what are you going to use it for, and the other is asking for your personal experience without assuming anything.

K: So, I find curiosity about blackness… I’m open to that, and I talk about it, but there is a certain point at which it just becomes racism.

C: Yes.

K: And, so… for me, I’m very, very careful about… when people are asking me questions to assume positive intention.

C: Mhm.

K: I – as soon as they start asking me any questions about ethnicity, any questions about race, any questions about religion, any questions – like, those questions comes with an agenda.

C: Yes.

K: And, for me… that’s not coming to curiosity because, as soon as you ask me what blackness is, you’re already expressing bias. Because blackness is not a monolith. I am Kisstopher. I am one person. Just like if you ask me what atheism is, I cannot describe – your atheism is so much different than my atheism. I find. 

C: Yes.

K: And… I think that… when we first met, I was really, really mellow with my atheism.

C: Mhm.

K: But when I was 16 and I first came out as an atheist, I was very militant with my atheism. And I feel like you’re at the tail end of your atheist coming out which is interesting because I’m in the second – or fifth wave – of coming out as an atheist.

C: Well, I think that… it’s tricky because I don’t feel like I was… ever in once I had made the decision that, okay, I don’t actually believe this stuff. 

K: But when your grandmother came to our house and was asking me for the names of my ancestors, you did not tell me until she left that she would be going and having my people baptized as Mormon. 

C: Yes.

K: And, so, to me, that’s the difference between… our types of atheism. Like, you know that goes against my beliefs. 

C: Yes.

K: And you know the thought of baptizing me after my death – you know that goes against my beliefs. And you weren’t protective of my right to practice atheism.

C: Yes.

K: And so, for me, I feel like you weren’t out as an atheist because you didn’t say to your grandmother, “don’t do that.”

C: Mhm.

K: Like… my grandmother wanted – my grandmother asked me about having… you saved in the Catholic church, and I said, “no thank you. I’m still an atheist, and so is he.” And she said, “okay, baby.”

C: Mhm.

K: So, to me, that’s what I mean by being out. Like, my super-duper Catholic grandmother knew I was an atheist.

C: Right.

K: And everything in my life, except for a lot of my siblings who I didn’t really talk to, knew me as atheist. But your grandmother… I don’t think ever knew that you were an atheist. I think your grandmother died without knowing you had left the Mormon church. She knew you didn’t go to church, but I don’t think she knew you left the church.

C: I think that most Mormons, that I have met, don’t believe that anybody ever truly leaves the church.

K: Yeah, but you truly left. Like you signed the

C: Yeah, I truly left. I 

K: Paperwork and everything.

C: Yeah. Yeah. But I think they’re like, “well, you know… if you get baptized again, then everything is undone as if you never left.” And that was one of the letters that they sent me, like, “you’re going to face eternal consequences for this… but if you take it back, you can have everything back. We’ve still got all your records: we didn’t throw anything away. Nothing can make us throw those away.”

K: So, when you say that you weren’t in the closet as an atheist, I say that you were. 

C: No, I’m not saying that…

K: Because, like, being out – for me – the definition of being out is that you tell people. So, here’s the thing, I was – just to be really clear, we’re talking about being closeted and being out. That’s very similar to LBGTQIA+ language. It’s identical. And here’s my view on being out – and it’s Kisstopher’s view on being out, other people might describe it differently – my view on being out is that you share who you are, and you tell people.

C: Mhm.

K: Other people’s views of being out is that you just live your life normally. That you don’t talk about it unless it comes up or unless it’s relevant.

C: Right.

K: What’s your view of being out? Because I viewed you as being closeted until we came to Japan. Because none of your family knew that you weren’t Mormon. And… you came out to your whole family when they were sending you racist jokes.

C: Yes. 

K: And, so, I feel like you were in the closet for… anti-racism and you were in the closet for… atheism. 

C: I find it difficult to say… like… how I view it just because… I’m usually very reluctant to… make waves about things if I don’t think that it will lead to change. 

K: Yeah.

C: And, so, for example, when my grandmother was asking you about your family names… I feel like, well, I don’t believe, and you don’t believe, that what they’re doing has any real effect. Like, there’s not the Mormon god to take notice and be like, “okay, those people are baptized. Anybody whose name wasn’t on the list is not, and they go to hell forever.” Like… so… I didn’t feel, at that time, any urgency in speaking up to say, “hey they’re going to perform imaginary rituals that won’t have any effect but might bother you if you knew about them.”

K: So, for me, why I think you were in – just to be clear, so everybody knows: Chad and I have never fought about this. I think this is the first time we’re actually talking about it, and I’m not upset in any way because I do believe what he just said. They did some magic. I don’t believe in magic; therefore, they did nothing. But… for me, that’s why I think he was in the closet. Because, for me, when someone said, “hey I’m going to do this imaginary thing that goes against what you believe in”, I took the opportunity to tell them, “I don’t believe in that.” 

C: Mhm.

K: And you did not take the opportunity to say, “I don’t believe in that.” So, you were passing as Mormon at the time. Which, to me, is being closeted.

C: I think, in many ways – and I think for some of the same reasons – I think because, when I did publicly declare, “okay, I’ve quit the Mormon church. I’m no longer Mormon.” I got a lot of messages of “this won’t affect anything” and that was the last I ever heard from that person.

K: Yeah.

C: Like, you know, in the ten years after that they’ve never once spoken to me again. And unfriended me on Facebook and, like…

K: Yeah.

C: So, I don’t think it’s quite as extreme as, say, the Jehovah Witnesses, or the scientologists, but Mormons definitely…

K: Oh, for some it is.

C: I’m saying, like, I don’t – maybe I shouldn’t say as extreme. I don’t think it’s as pervasive. I think that there are Mormons who, if you stop being Mormon, will still talk to you. And the official line is that, “well, no, you’re not being shunned. You’re just not a member anymore.” But

K: But none of the Mormons in your life talked to you after you left the church. How is that not disconnecting? And they unfriend you.

C: There are like three who do.

K: And they unfriended you. How is that not disconnecting?

C: Yeah.

K: And they haven’t spoken to you in a decade.

C: Yeah.

K: To me, that’s – hello – that’s disconnection.

C: When I was Mormon, I was taught “it’s not about the other person. It’s about your own soul because what if they convince you that they’re right?” That ex-Mormons are dangerous because they will seduce you away from the truth.

K: So, I feel like, in the United States, you were still holding on to your family and those connections and your friends. And… I feel like – that’s why I don’t out people. That’s why I didn’t out you as an atheist. I felt like you had the right to have a relationship with your grandmother.

C: Yeah.

K: And your aunt. And you had a right to have a relationship with your siblings. Which is why I tolerated their racism.

C: Mhm.

K: And why I tolerated their Mormonism. And tolerated all of their prayers and blessings and shenanigans. And why I didn’t stonewall – I didn’t give a lot of names. I was like, “oh, I don’t know my family history.” I was just like very absentminded and disconnected, and she was really sad for me, and then she was like, “okay, tell me your name, and we’re going to research your people.”

C: Yeah. They’d have to do what they call name extraction, so they’d have to go find the birth certificates and things to make sure that they were… doing the magic on the right person.

K: Yeah. And if she wanted to send herself on that mission, like… right on, grandma. If that’s going to make you feel good – I didn’t care. And I feel like… your grandmother’s… racism – I feel like she was, interestingly enough, the least racist of everyone in y our family. Like your grandmother and your aunt. So, I liked them the best. Um… and one of your brothers. And, so, I feel like… they’re… that, when we’re talking about religion, and the pressure to be religious, it’s really interesting that – being in the closet, we were driven by the same thing. 

C: Yeah.

K: When I went back in as an atheist, I was driven by the fear of loss.

C: Mhm.

K: And I felt way more pressured because I hadn’t lived – because, by the time we met, I had already done 14 years.

C: Yeah.

K: Of being out and being who I am. And then, when we came to Japan, I was given this blank slate.

C: Right.

K: And I didn’t quite know what to do with it because, now here I am, I present so prim and proper. And so palatable. 

C: Mhm.

K: And, for me, there was a time when… I just was like so disappointed in myself that I was choosing to be palatable.

C: Yeah.

K: And I just had this moment of… awakening… with that client. 

C: Mhm.

K: And… because I had two clients simultaneously. I had – because I had – there was this weird summer in Japan where I had like three or four clients that were going to jail. And had broken the law. And I had this… racist family that needed me. And one of the clients that was going to jail was talking to me about how hard they were and this that and the other. And then I said something in response, and then I saw in their eyes, “oh shit.” And them realizing I was black. 

C: Mhm.

K: Like… they hadn’t reali- they had been seeing me for a year.

C: Yeah.

K: And I was like, wow. And they knew our son. And they knew you. 

C: Right.

K: But they just hadn’t connected the dots, I guess?

C: Uh-huh.

K: And that was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me. 

C: Yeah.

K: I was done. I was like… “I am done helping people who do not value any part of me.”

C: Yes.

K: And… then, I had to go through the coming process all over again. And it was so much work. I think it would have been easier for me to just be out.

C: Mmm.

K: Because it so painful when I’m listening to a client tell me – who’s super Christian and preaches god’s love – and then tell me how their child can no longer play with unicorns because unicorns represent being trans. And… I just felt like a nuclear explosion go off inside of me, and I came home, and I decided I’m dropping that client.

C: Yeah.

K: And it was just a series of, like, just hemorrhaging clients whose beliefs don’t match my own. Because I truly think they’re horrible people. I do not think that they deserve horrible lives. I do think that they deserve to have an awakening, but I don’t think that your therapist should be the person who’s lecturing you on all of the ways that you’re horrible. And some therapists think that you do, but I practice – in my practice, I do compassion-focused therapy. And that is compassion for self so that we can have compassion for others. And, so, it creates this weird dichotomy because I’m not – and I am a stand in your truth therapist. Like, “stand in your truth.” And I didn’t think that there was anything I could say – I don’t think that this person would willingly pay me to change their views.

C: Right.

K: And… I don’t want to be that. I used to when I was younger, but now I don’t want to be that. I want to be honest about who I am and say, “hey, look.” And then when they – “hey, look. I’m an atheist.” – and they’re like, “oh. Okay. But I can still follow your advice and guidance.” And I’m like, “but why would you?”

C: Mhm.

K: “You think I’m immoral.”

C: Yeah, that’s such an interesting thing to me: how people’s beliefs and what they profess to believe and their morality get so twisted up. There’s a guy, locally – I don’t know if he’s still here – but who was saying, like… oh, he was so glad that the local chapter of the boy scouts had decided that they weren’t going to follow the American rule, and they didn’t have to let gay kids in. And, like, if you’re going to do that, just whatever. Like, you know, the American chapter has just gone straight to hell because they let gay kids – and pretty soon, they’ll have gay leaders. And I said, “well, they don’t have any atheists. They still don’t allow atheists.” And he almost burst into tears saying, “how can you be”

K: Tears of fury.

C: “How can you be reverent – it’s part of the scout oath – how can you be reverent if you’re an atheist? Atheists are terrible people.” And, like… I don’t… I’m a very patient person, so I didn’t blow up. But… the guy makes weapons of mass destruction for a living. 

K: Literally. Literally.

C: Literally, his job is to come up with better ways to murder people. 

K: Yes. En masse.

C: I don’t see how…

K: There’s a lot of defense department workers in Japan who are not just pencil pushers. They’re like actively making weapons of mass destruction and designing them and helping Japan manufacture and design them and improve on them.

C: Missiles and bombs and fighter planes. 

K: Yeah.

C: And… just like… how do you think that you’re a good person? Like, your job is to make it easier to kill other people. 

K: Yeah. You’re literally responsible for the death of thousands of people.

C: And you’re lecturing me because I’m an atheist even though you’ve never had any reason to question, like, the fact that I’m here volunteering and all of this stuff. So, I find… like… the things that people will twist themselves up to justify, to me… have convinced me that religion and morality are entirely divorced from one another. I know of highly moral people who are Christians. I know highly moral people who are atheists. I know terrible people who are Christians and terrible people who are atheists.

K: Yeah.

C: So, for me, I don’t judge people based on their religion, but I do judge them based on how they practice it. Or how they practice their non-religion.

K: Yes. We have a really lovely, lovely person that we’re really dear friends with, and they’re a pastor. And… I’m always complimenting and supporting the way that they practice their faith. It’s so inclusive, and it is so about love and, like, we – they know that I’m an atheist. They know you’re an atheist. We don’t have any squabble about it. We don’t really talk a lot about faith or any of that because we know we have different views, but, when they do talk about their faith, and they do it in a loving, welcoming way, I always am sure to support that and elevate that. 

So, what I find interesting is that, because I had that 14 years of practice of being out and who I was, my life had just naturally filled itself with like-minded people. And my beliefs weren’t challenged. I wasn’t challenged. I didn’t have to work hard to practice my beliefs. I didn’t tolerate racism with the exception of your family to an extent. I didn’t interact with them. Our son didn’t interact with them.

C: Yeah.

K: But I supported your right to interact with your family with the exception of your grandma and your aunt. Rasta did interact with them. Your siblings… they didn’t really like me, so that was easy.

C: Yeah.

K: But everyone else in my life were anti-bias, and all of the white people in my life were working on allyship and were working on having a listening ear and a closed mouth. And… a listening ear and a closed mouth is offensive to some people. But when you are – when you are the only white person in a group of black people, having a listening ear will serve you more than a questioning mouth. I find. So, that’s what I mean. For me, there are times that I go into white spaces, and I have a listening ear and a closed mouth to understand what are their points of view. What are they thinking? And the same thing with able-bodied groups and people that have faith. So, I don’t mean to offend anybody with that statement. Chad finds that phrase really offensive. What I think is shocking – was most shocking to me – was that all of my passion, all of my confidence, and all of my fight – I had been this lifelong activist, like literally when I was three or four years old my mom took me door to door to get petitions to get rights for women to fight against spousal abuse. Literally – so, I am not kidding when I’m saying I am a lifetime advocate and a lifetime agitator. (laughs) And freedom fighter, in my mind, and always on a journey of de-shackling myself and taking – putting down my bondage. And I’m surprised how much wanting to speak English and wanting to… be around specifically Americans that I put myself back in bondage.

C: Mmm.

K: And this is even with the African Americans because, I don’t know what it is about coming to Japan, but it really does cause this sort of militant views – militatnt from my perspective. And I don’t know, maybe they were this militant back in the United States. I don’t know. Bu… like… how I identify is a huge thing in the African American community here in Japan. And how I identify among other black folks. And I’m like, “we’re Black. We’re not African-American.”

C: Yeah.

K: Like, girl over here is from Jamaica. Girl over here is from the Bahamas. Girl over here is from Africa, and she’s never been to America, like

C: Okay. 50,000 Americans in Japan. 

K: Right?

C: Of which most are not black.

K: Yes. And being mad because a friend of mine from the U.K. was not like “African-American” and I’m like, “girl. She’s not American.” (laughs) She’s black, but she’s not American. And… so, that, and then the Christianity on top of that. And… then, with the white people, racism. And… then, with the religious people, that huge bias. So, there’s that one group that I was coming in contact with, and then something really cool and interesting happened. I came out again and then, holy crap, it was the same process.

When I emancipated myself, I started meeting more like-minded people. I started drawing more like-minded people into my practice, into my personal life, and now I’m surrounded primarily by atheists who believe we should do our best to be anti-biased and believe that we should do our best to be welcoming. And for the poeple who have a religious practice that they do, we completely respect that. We completely cohabitate. We know that we have a different view on this topic of religion, but they’re, again, anti-bias and welcoming. And I know that this may twist people’s minds up because how can they be welcoming if they think I’m going to hell. Because they don’t need to tell me that.

C: Well, and not every religious person thinks you’re going to hell. So, Japan has a really, really high amount of religious atheists because Buddhism is not inherently theist.

K: Yeah.

C: So, there are a lot of sects of Buddhism that are atheist. They don’t believe that there’s a god. They’re just like Buddhism is about how the world works and how you can be better and all of that.

K: Yeah. And then there are other, super-religious Buddhists.

C: Right. Who are polytheist or monotheist or – there’s a lot of variety in that. And… a lot of the… jewish people that I’ve known throughout my life have not been… they’ve been theists, but they have not believed in an afterlife.

K: Yes. There are some that do.

C: There are some that do, but I think

K: We’ve talked before about the Jews for Jesus. 

C: Jews for Jesus, there’s a different – it’s a Christian religion. It’s a whole other thing that

K: So, I know Jewish people who are in the Jews for Jesus that they are Jewish, and I know that you don’t believe that that can exist, but everybody gets to identify how they choose to identify. And then there are jewish people who believe that there is a heaven, and then there are jewish people who do not believe that there is a heaven.

C: Yeah. So, I’ll say the people

K: And a whole bunch of shade sin between.

C: The religious Jews that I have been closest to have either been conservative or reformed.

K: Yeah.

C: And most of them have expressed that they do not believe in an afterlife. They believe that god gave them rules for how to live this life.

K: Yes.

C: And, so, I think that not every religious person thinks you’re going to hell just because you disagree with them. 

K: But I don’t mind it. 

C: Mhm.

K: Like, I know you don’t like to be friends with people who think you’re going to hell. I don’t mind it. Like, just don’t say it. As long as you don’t say it, I’m cool with it. Like, think what you want to think. And I know that that’s not as anti-biased and welcoming.

C: Well, it’s okay that if they tell you that you’re going to come back as a goat. 

K: It’s what?

C: It’s okay if they tell you that you’re going to come back as a goat.

K: And you know I think that.

C: (laughs)

K: You know I think that one of my most adored friends in the United States would believe that I was probably going to come back as a goat.

C: She wasn’t actually talking about you. She was talking about her daughter. 

K: She had threatened her daughter with that – she threatened her son with that.

C: Yes. “If you don’t eat your vegetables, you’ll come back as a goat.” 

K: Yeah, but that’s a topic for the take two.

C: Okay.

K: So, yeah, so if you want to hear that story, you’ve got to head on over to the take two. So… do you agree with my assessment that you were not out until we came to Japan?

C: I think that I tried to make very few waves in most circumstances, and I was circumspect about whether or not I believed. Because, in the United States, I did find that people were… on the whole, very aggressive about the need for you to be religious. Some people cared that you were they religion, but almost everybody cared that you were some religion. 

K: And most of our religious friends just accused me of being mad at god. That was their position because my mother had died of cancer.

C: Yeah. That – that’s such a tiresome one. Because my mother also died of cancer.

K: Yes. (laughs) Both of our – as we’ve talked about, if you’re a Musick Note, you know we like to deploy that information to dead mother people. But, for me, I was really happy – like, sometimes I miss my mom, but was such a horrible person that we had like a few good years. And I was really happy that she died before our son was born. Because, then, she didn’t ever get to abuse him, and I didn’t have to go through the process of cutting her out of my life because she was a bad influence on him like I had to do with my father.

C: Yeah.

K: So, I feel like I was able to get in that pocket of, like, she went out with us on good terms. My father went out with us on good terms even though we hadn’t spoke in 18 years. We had one phone conversation when I forgave him even though he never apologized or admitted the horrible things that he had done. And it was cleansing for me. But that forgiveness couldn’t come until he was dying because, now that he’s done, I do… forgive him for being a horrible human being.

C: Yeah. He has no more power to.

K: Yeah, so I can forgive him because he’s not going to keep propagating that hateful, horrible stuff. And… then, lo and behold, the man learned how to hurt people from the grave. He had, like, all of this poetry. So, he abandoned all of his children. Didn’t raise any of them. He was obsessed with our son, and he wrote a bunch of poems and books about how much he longed for and missed being able to raise our son. And that just like ripped the whole family because the sister who found it – find it, have it hurt your feelings and move on. 

C: Yeah.

K: Don’t spread it through the family. And didn’t just spread it through the siblings but spread it to like, to his grandchildren. And, like, one grandson in particular was completely gutted by it. He was like, “did you know about this?” And I was like

C: “He loved my cousin but not me.” 

K: Yeah, I was like

C: Yes, yes he did because he was a terrible person.

K: Yeah. But I was like, “I didn’t spread the news.”

C: Yeah.

K: “I am” – because, one, no I didn’t know about the writing. 

C: No, you didn’t.

K: And two, no it was not my idea to tell anyone about it. And then, three, this is the sister who thought that I was lying about all of the bad stuff.

C: Mhm.

K: Because every time she came around, he would say he was a Christian. And I call BS on that because he smoked weed and cigarettes and drank. But she was like, “I didn’t see any of that.”

C: Mhm.

K: so, that denial that comes with a lot of Christianity, and the fact that she knows I’m an atheist, and she sends me god bless you messages is why we don’t talk.

C: Yeah. 

K: Like, god bless you and pray together – if you’re going to do that, I just – no. And a friend of mine once told me, “just take it as positive energy” and I don’t. I take it as assaultive energy because if I said, “say hi to your imaginary friend for me” how would that land?

C: Yeah.

K: Like a fricking brick. That’s not going to go down well. So, you’re telling me my life isn’t going to be good unless your imaginary friend… does what? Exactly. And I’m superstitious as heck, so I have magical thinking on board, too. Which confuses you.

C: It does, yeah.

K: (laughs) Something I find interesting is that, when I was closeted while we in Japan, it was really painful for you.

C: Yes.

K: But you don’t think that your time of being closeted was painful for me.

C: Yeah, I… I have… some reconciliation to do on that.

K: I think so. Because it’s not your time of being closeted; it’s your denial that it caused any harm.

C: Yeah.

K: That is a little bit more challenging, I think, for me, anyways.

C: Yeah.

K: But… I still love you. I still think you’re a keeper.

C: Thank you. I love you, too.

K: Yeah. You’re still the one. You’re still my forever person. 

C: I love you even though you’re going to a hell I don’t believe in.

K: (laughs) Chad does not think I’m going to hell. Like, do you not have – what if a new listener’s listening to us for the first time? They’re like, “oh my god. He just told her she’s going to hell after all of that.”

C: (laughs)

K: They don’t know your sarcasm yet.

C: Oh, they don’t. Yeah.

K: Yeah. Disclose and disclaim, buddy.

C: Yeah, that was sarcasm.

K: Come out as sarcastic. 

C: Yeah.

K: (laughs)

C: That was sarcasm. I tend not to be sarcastic on Twitter unless I clearly mark it because it’s really hard to tell if people are being sarcastic.

K: Yeah.

C: And I’m not trying to hurt anybody.

K: Yeah. So, if you want to keep the conversation going, you know, follow us on Twitter. Be aware that our Twitter is a mix of things, but there is going to be a large portion of our tweets that are political in nature and that support feminism and are about dismantling the patriarchy and also LGBTQIA+ positive and supportive. We do our best to use our privilege and our platform to elevate the messages that we want in the world.

C: Yes.

K: Yeah. So, it’s a mix. And then other times, I’ll be completely fixated on why does Word hate me. Because I’m (laughs) doing my PhD. Why does Word hate me? So… I hope you enjoyed this episode, and that you follow us on over to Patreon and check out our take two.

C: Bye.

K: Bye.