Japanese and United States cultures differ greatly in the amount of touch considered acceptable between strangers, among family, and in general. We talk about our experiences as Americans being touched a lot less in Japan.
Content Note: Discussion of non-consensual touching
Transcript
K: So, lately I’ve been thinking about the difference in between touching in the United States and touching in Japan, and I get touched far less in Japan than I did in the United States. I feel like in the United States, everyone was always touching me. Like, touching my arm or hugging me. I feel like I met my girls, I hugged, there was just a lot of touching.
C: Yes.
K: Really? “Yes” is all you have for the people?
(laughter)
K: So, touching bothers me less than it bothers you. But being touched does bother me.
C: Being touched at all bothers you, or just people you don’t know or people you – feeling the social obligation to allow yourself to be touched or…?
K: Feeling a social obligation to allow myself to be touched and… so, I – we don’t do trigger warnings on this show, but…
C: We put content notes on the transcripts, so if you just listen, you don’t get them, but if you check the transcript.
K: This time I’m going to do a trigger warning because most of my life I’ve been touched inappropriately, and, so, if that type of thing is upsetting or triggering for you, you might not want to listen to this episode.
C: Okay.
K: Do you think that’s fair?
C: Yup. Boooooop.
K: Really?
C: Yeah.
K: So, like, that was the exit point was like the weird
C: That was the exit point, yes.
K: Okay. So, something that’s happened to me my entire life is aggressive hugging. And it’s only -0 there’s only been one person in Japan who’s been able to aggressively hug me, and they finally left Japan, and I threw myself a parade that they were gone. I cringed every time I would see them because we weren’t friends, first of all. We’re not friends. We did not like each other, and, I don’t know, maybe they liked me, but they didn’t talk well of me, so, they would, like, say how much they love me to my face then talk trash about me behind my back. So, maybe, personally they liked me, but professionally they didn’t would be the most accurate way?
C: Or maybe they liked you so much they wanted everybody else stay away.
K: Maybe.
C: You’ve had that happen before.
K: Yeah, I have. So… in the United States, this would happen to me quite often, and, in Japan, only happened to me once where somebody would hug me and then press their genitalia against mine.
C: Mhm.
K: And… in a hug, there’s never any reason that that should ever happen.
C: Yeah.
K: And… also, like, hugging me and then as you release from the hug doing a sideswipe on the boobs. Or hugging and mashing my boobs against them. And, like, sometimes people would give it a rock back and forth, and I just feel like… eww. Every time that happens. And, so, in case anybody’s wondering, yes that’s sexual assault. If you’re touching someone in a sexual way without their consent, that’s sexual assault, and I never consented to that. And it happened to me a lot in the United States, and I always felt guilty and ashamed every time it happened to me. Because I feel like, because it’s been happening to me my whole life, that I should know better and how to avoid it. So, I’m very good at the hip rock out… but, the problem with that for me if I do the hip rock out, I’m doing the protruding of the breasts.
C: Yeah. Just because of the physics of it.
K: Yeah. So, I try to do the side-hug, but then people usually kiss me.
C: Mhm.
K: And, so, I don’t know how to – like, now I just – I think if anyone goes to hug me, I need to say no thank you.
C: Yeah. Especially Japanese people usually say “iie” which is “no” but it’s also “no thank you.”
K: No Japanese person has ever tried to hug me.
C: Interesting.
K: Yeah.
C: That has not been my experience.
K: You get hugged by Japanese nationals?
C: I get – yes, I do.
K: Who’s hugging you?
C: Well, nobody now, but my last job people would make attempts to hug me.
K: Ah, because your last job was doing that fake family shit.
C: Yeah.
K: Like “we’re a family here. We’re a family not a corporation.”
C: Yeah.
K: Until it’s time to pay you a fair wage.
C: Mhm. Can I get an allowance, mom?
K: (laughs) Okay. I have to tell you guys something that we do. So, anytime
(laughter)
K: You got me good that time.
C: Thank you.
K: You got me so good that time. Oh my god. So, (laughs) we’re going to let you guys in on the joke, just wooh, let me get back (laughs)
C: Let you catch your breath.
K: Yes. Oh, my goodness. (laughs) It’s so ridiculous. Oh my gosh, we’re so ridiculous. So, whenever I take a drink of water, I make this motion – I motion to Chad with my finger like “keep talking.”
C: Fill the void, fill the silence.
K: (laughs) Yes. Because I don’t want it to be dead air. And I drink – I get dehydrated whenever I speak, so I drink a lot of water. And Chad does not like – because he’s like “what am I supposed to say? You were in the middle of a thought.” I’m like “yeah, but I’m thirsty, keep talking.” So, he says something funny. And, that time, I swear I almost spread – spre – blegh, sprayed all over you. Soo, I’m going to take a sip of water, please keep the folks entertained while I do.
C: Okay, enjoy the sip. So, just as a small digression, she just drank a half-liter and she might drink two or more liters during the episode.
K: Yes.
C: So, when she says she gets thirsty, she’s being for real.
K: Yes. I drink bottles of water. So, I’m – I think the reason my skin is so smooth and flawless as it is (laughs) I just did a cheesy wink at Chad. No, but people always comment on my skin and they’re like “what’s your secret” – I think honestly, it’s genetics.
C: I think it’s not letting people touch you.
K: Yeah. Genetics. Not letting people touch me. Not wearing makeup. Um… always wearing sunscreen. Avoiding the sun. And drinking lots of water.
C: Yes. So, yeah, at my last company, people liked to touch. And
K: The one person you liked who always left punctually
C: No.
K: So, okay, the owner of the company would hug me, but it was an appropriate hug. Like, it was just a shoulder-to-shoulder hug.
C: Yeah, no, it wasn’t inappropriate.
K: So, I could tell that they had been hugged inappropriately. I can always tell when a woman’s been hugged inappropriately because there’s a way to curl your shoulders in. And, if the person does that, reciprocates that, then you guys are having an appropriate hug. If you’re hugging chest to chest with somebody that’s, to me – uhh, some people do that, but I think they’ve never been hugged inappropriately. If you just hug chest to chest and it’s a firm hug, it’s not a big deal, but if you start rocking or doing like a sideswipe touching of the breasts, or touching your genitals into them, then that’s an inappropriate hug.
C: Yes. Definitely.
K: And so, for me, I find that in the United States, it would happen most often, and here, in Japan, the one time it happened – undercover lesbians. So… they would – so, for me, an undercover lesbian, people can identify as heterosexual and still have sex with the same sex if that’s their choice. I will always think of them as, at minimal, sexually fluid. But most strongly bisexual. And, if you never sleep with men, but always – only sleep with women, but only do so when you’re drunk because you’re celibate, in my mind you’re a lesbian. That’s just me. And… I’m sorry if it pisses you off if you fall in that category or you think of yourself as celibate. You haven’t slept with men in years, you get drunk and sleep with women. I think you’re a lesbian. I’m just saying that.
C: See, I think you’re not celibate. I don’t know if you’re a lesbian or bisexual or what, I just think you’re celibate if you’re sleeping with people. I think like
K: I’ve had people tell me – I’ve had people argue with me about this and say, “I only kiss women and fondle their boobs, but I’ve never gone down on a woman.”
C: Uh-huh.
K: And I’m like “do you think all lesbians like to go down on their partner” because no, not every lesbian does.
C: Right? Your sexual identity is not the things you do, or the things done to you. It’s your preferences.
K: Yeah. It’s your attractions. So, you guys can argue and debate and send me all kinds of hate, I don’t care. I think that if you’re enjoying the female form sexually, and you are attracted sexually to the female form, and you identify as female, that you are a lesbian.
C: See, I was waiting for you to skip that last one, be like “I’m a lesbian.”
K: But you’re not a woman.
C: Exactly, but if you hadn’t said that, I’d be like… “I don’t make the rules. Kisstopher makes the rules.”
K: Oh my god, you’re such a cornball today. So, no, you’re not a lesbian, Chad. You’re a white, cis-gendered, heterosexual male. You are the epitome of The Man.
C: Yes. Yes. Thank you.
K: So, when you all fight the power, please don’t fight Chad. He’s not proud to be. So, we’re not in the United States, so you’re not part of the power structure.
C: I am not.
K: Because we’re in Japan, and we don’t even have the right to vote.
C: I’m a model minority, which we’re going to talk about on a different episode.
K: Yeah.
C: I find that, for me, in Japan – and in the U.S. too – is mostly handshakes. Like, people have always sensed that I’m not really a hugging person. Only people who are, like, extreme huggers
K: People have not always sensed that about you.
C: People have not always respected that, but I think that
K: If somebody looks like they’re going to hug you, you physically take steps back to make it, the distance, awkward if they try.
C: Yes.
K: And then you grab their hands.
C: Like a zombie where they go for the hug, but they end up lurching because I move.
K: What are you talking about?
C: I’m talking about they stagger around trying to get the hugs, and they can’t do it. Because I’m just dodging and weaving.
K: How are zombie movies like people trying to get hugs?
C: It’s people lunging for each other. They’re not trying to get hugs in zombie movies.
K: Yeah. So, if people try to hug you, it ends up being a lunge, and then you stabilize them by grabbing their hands. So, it’s not people are sensing you’re not a hugger, it’s you’re actively dodging hugs.
C: (laughs) Some of them sense it very late in the process.
K: Okay, yes. Yes. Okay. I’ll give you that. They figure it out. They just get the vibe when you’re grabbing their hand to stabilize them because they’ve almost knocked to the – knocked themselves to the ground trying to hug you.
C: Right. Exactly.
K: Okay. If you’re talking about sensing in that way….
C: Japanese people, for some reason, even though they bow to each other – many Japanese men in particular want to shake hands with me.
K: Ohh. Just like using their English?
C: Yeah. I’m like “do you not see the cane in my right hand? But, fine, let me take the cane out of my right hand to shake your hand and put it back.” And I do it very pointedly. Like… okay, I see that you are unable to control your hand. Your hand is like a homing missile seeking mine out.
K: I’ve seen you do it. It doesn’t look pointed at all.
C: It feels pointed to me.
K: Okay. That’s the main thing.
C: Because, like, I have the constant war in me between grace and pointedness.
K: Yeah, and you’re much more graceful than pointed.
C: Yeah. I was conditioned that way – to be gracious to other people. I didn’t 12:00 graceful
K: You’re really good at being sharp with me, but it’s very rare that you’re sharp with anyone else. You’re sharp with me because you love me.
C: Yes.
K: Because I make you feel safe.
C: Yes.
K: (laughs)
C: And because
K: We always hurt the ones we love. (laughs)
C: And because it’s a choice – it’s like, do I be gracious and avoid that person whenever possible, or do I directly let them know “don’t do that” so that I can be around them more, but then they’ll feel all awkward.
K: Okay. So, I find something that’s universal for me no matter where I am in the world – if I am on public transportation, I get groped.
C: Mhm.
K: And, so, for everyone out there who gropes on public transportation, yes, you are committing a crime. Yes, it is sexual assault. And, yes, every single person that you grope knows that you, specifically you, nasty disgusting pervert groper, groped them. And the reason that they don’t do anything is because there’s not an authority figure there. By the time they got an authority figure, the train would be gone. Because if they had groping police on the trains like they do in some places in the U.S., I would report their ass and have them arrested. And press charges to the fullest extent of the law.
C: Yeah.
K: So, the most aggressive thing I’ve ever done is I would ride the same bus every day, and someone groped me. And I had the bus driver pull the bus, and we called the police. And they were locked in. And that person was flipping out. But everybody seen them do it, and they got arrested, so, yes, now they are registered as a sex offender. So, be aware that in the United States, if the person has the mind to – if it’s on the bus – and if they know the bus driver, that they can hold the bus until the police come. And if you grope, you become a sexual offender.
C: Yeah.
K: You get on the sexual offenders’ list. And it jacks up your whole life. But I’ve had people like, when I’m walking down the street, ride past me on a bike and grope me. Like, smack me on the ass. And it’s just like – that’s why I was like “you go girl” to the new reporter a few months back that got groped when she was reporting on a play, and the guy was like “I’m a pastor and a father,” and I’m like “yeah, okay.”
C: “It was harmless. It wasn’t sexua-” yeah, bullshit, it was.
K: Yeah. You should not touch people’s bodies without their permission. Unless you’re doing consensual nonconsent.
C: But then you still have their permission. That – that’s a whole other kink thing, but.
K: Yeah. I mention that a lot. Consensual nonconsent. (laughs) Because it’s a whole fetish, man. A whole fetish.
C: Yeah, but in that both people have agreed to it in advance.
K: So, I’ve had clients who are upset that I don’t hug them. I’ve had clients scream at the tops of their lungs at me “I just need to be hugged, I just need to be touched,” and I still stay in my chair across the room from them.
C: Yeah. And, in Japan, you can – I don’t think they actually call them cuddle cafes, but I think there’s this kind of thing in the U.S. too – there are places where you can go in Japan to sleep with someone.
K: Yeah. In a snuggle way, not
C: In a snuggle way, yes.
K: Yeah. So, for me, even when I was doing therapy in the United States, I didn’t have – I wasn’t physical, except for when I was doing physical play with
C: Children.
K: Specific children that needed physical play as part of their therapy.
C: Right.
K: So, then, it was only because it was a therapeutic requirement. As soon as they aged out of that, I stopped touching them.
C: Yeah.
K: As soon as possible, I stopped touching.
C: Yeah.
K: So, I really don’t like touching people other than family. When I think about it – I’m trying to think of who I like touching that’s not related to me. That’s not you or Rasta.
C: I can’t think of anybody. I know you enjoy the Japanese culture of not touching other people.
K: Yes. I do.
C: Which is not universal, so between close friends, there’s lots of touching.
K: Yes. But as soon as we get to the touching portion of the friendship, I’m done.
C: Yeah.
K: I don’t – so yeah, I really don’t like being touched.
C: Yeah.
K: Interesting. I didn’t think I’d ever be that person that didn’t like being touched.
C: Mhm.
K: I always just go by other people’s rules. I guess that’s a façade because if people don’t say anything, I don’t touch them. And if people don’t say that they – if people say they don’t like being touched, I don’t touch them. And if people say that they like hugs, I don’t hug them.
C: Yeah.
K: So, I’m not going of off people – I guess I’m going off of me.
C: So, I have a new script that I want to try out.
K: Okay. I’m ready for it.
C: You know the people who are like “I’m a hugger.”
K: Yeah.
C: Go ahead and tell me you’re a hugger.
K: I’m a hugger.
C: I’m a biter.
K: (laughs) High five because that was awesome. And some people might be “yes, please,” then what are you going to do?
C: Hmm?
K: Some people might be “yes, please” then what are you going to do Mr. Cleverpants?
C: I’m married.
(laughter)
C: This dentition is reserved for my wife.
K: Yes, it is. And I love it. I’m into it. So, the bowing culture in Japan, a lot of Americans get really offended. Like, “I’m not going to bow to people. I’m not going to bow down to you.”
C: Yeah. But they – they won’t think anything of, giving like the head nod up. Like “hey.”
K: Yeah, but the head nod down is the ojigi baby. Getting ojigi with it.
C: I will nod my head at an upward motion at you, but how dare you think I will nod my head in a downward motion at you.
K: Yeah to show – I think of it as a sign of subservience, but it depends on how you deep the bow is.
C: Yeah.
K: So, for me
C: Like, if you’re getting down onto your knees and putting your face on the carpet, that’s
K: That’s prostration.
C: Yeah. Exactly. That’s like “our company killed some people, and we’re apologizing for it.”
K: (laughs) Oh my god. Yeah, they don’t bow like that. So, I like the art of bowing in Japan. And, for – it took me a lot of years to understand that women don’t put their hands in front of them to bow. Men do. Wait, no, women put their hands in front, men don’t.
C: Yeah.
K: So, now I put my hands in front.
C: Well, and “women put their hands in front” is not universal. Just like there’s, uh, female Japanese language.
K: Uh-huh.
C: Like certain constructs that are used mostly by women.
K: Like “ne” at the end of a sentence versus “yo” at the end of the sentence, but those aren’t strictly followed.
C: Exactly. And the same thing with bowing. It’s not strictly followed that women always put their hands in front. Like, the times you’ll see that is in department stores and things where they’ve been trained.
K: mmm. I think it’s more common than that.
C: Okay. It’s the times that I notice it. If you’re at a bank or a department store or something, then they’ll do that.
K: Because that’s a particular hand position rather than – so, for like the really strict bowing, it’s hands straight out, arms straight, at your side, and then depending on who you are in the relationship says the degree.
C: Yeah.
K: Of how deeply you’re supposed to bow. And for women, it’s hands put together but not interlaced and sometimes women just roll their hands in a little bit and bow.
C: Yeah. And if you’re bowing to, like, one, that’s a pretty deep bow.
K: If you’re bowing to one?
C: Yeah. I’m using gradients here. Because degrees is awkward. But like
K: Why is degree awkward?
C: It’s not but…
K: Okay. What are you saying because you’re on a trip?
C: Gradients is another way of measuring angle. And it doesn’t have a unit.
K: Okay.
C: So, it’s just one.
K: Okay.
C: One is
K: Ah, so you’re making a math joke.
C: I’m making a math joke.
K: So, everyone who got it, and you’re laughing along with Chad, know that he’s thirsty for those laughs.
C: Thank you, I am thirsty.
K: (laughs)
C: One gradient is not quite sixty degrees. It’s a pretty deep bow.
K: Yeah, who’s doing a sixty-degree bow? I’m not meeting the freaking emperor.
C: See, you know the occasion for which it would be appropriate
(laughter)
K: So, I guess I know who’s doing a sixty-degree bow. Everybody meeting the emperor, that’s who.
C: Right?
K: So, I really like the bowing. And I find it interesting that, um, when you part ways, it’s just like bow, bow, bow, bow. Like tons of bowing. So, when my Japanese clients leave the office, we just continue bowing. And then they continue talking until they’re out the door saying bye. And then they close it. So, it can be up to like a two-minute-long thing to say goodbye.
C: that’s a lot quicker than some other people, though.
K: Yes, I do have some clients that like even if I unlock the door, open it, and give them the scoot scoot hands will lean in and continue talking to me from the doorway. And most of the time I’m like “I have to go to the bathroom.”
C: Because I know growing up, my mom’s family it was like a 45-minute goodbye.
K: What?
C: “Okay, goodbye, see you later” and then like 45 minutes later they’d leave.
K: What?
C: Yeah.
K: What would you be doing in that 45 minutes after saying “goodbye, see you later, love you, mwah”?
C: Trying to get them out the door.
K: Get them out the door how, like what are you talking about? What are they doing?
C: Like future plan scheduling, like “oh did I tell you about” like, it’s a whole thing.
K: Okay. I do have people – and I know how to maneuver them – and, so, I have a set thing. So, I end all my sessions the exact same way. Like, when the session time is over, I put my reading glasses on, I grab my schedule book, and then I say “so, would you like to schedule your next” – I say “do you want do this again?” “Do you think you want to do this again, and do you want to schedule now?” “Do you know your schedule now?”
C: Mhm.
K: So, wait, no, I have several different ways, now that I’m thinking about it. Now that I’m thinking about it, I have several different ways that I end it. I thought it was one way.
C: But none of them are hugging.
K: No, none of them are hugging. So, this is a digression. I’m still going to digress. I put my glasses on, and I grab my schedule book, and then ask people “do you know your availability now, or do you want to schedule by email?” Or I say, “so, do you think you want to do this again?” I say, “do you know your schedule now, or do you want to schedule by email?” I say, “so, do you know when you want to come back, or do you want to email?”
C: So, these sound like people who are regular clients – like regular in the sense of they come to see you on a regular basis – or first time clients who may or may not come back, and then I know you have some people who only come sporadically.
K: Yeah. And then, for some clients, it’s just put on my clients and say, “our next appointment is” (laughs)
C: Yeah.
K: And then stand up, open the door, walk out the sliding door. Because I have sliding doors in my office, and sometimes, even sliding doors, like I can go sit down – I have, not, I don’ have any of these clients now, but I had a few years back a client that I could go sit down in the other room and answer emails while they were getting together and still talking to me. And I would tell them all the time “I’m hard of hearing, once I exit the room, I can’t hear you.”
C: Right.
K: But they would take so long that I would check my email and like – they knew they took a long time. And then they would go to the bathroom, and like, at the ten-minute warning I would have to get up and leave the room because it would take them between ten and twenty minutes to leave my office.
C: So
K: And not because they had a hard session or anything.
C: Right. Just, just their leaving process.
K: Yeah. And they warned me about it. I thought it was really sweet. They warned me about it like “hey, so, yeah, something about me: it takes me anywhere between fifteen and thirty minutes to leave a place. Can you work that into our time?” I was like “you’re so thoughtful. Yes, I can.”
C: Yeah. Interesting. It reminds me of – because I do, I’ve mentioned this before – I do occasionally meet people who tell me “I’m your wife’s client” and then want to talk about it. And I never talk about what they talk about in their session. I say, “you should talk to Kisstopher about that because you’re not getting free therapy from me.”
K: (laughs) And you can’t do therapy. You’re not a therapist.
C: Exactly. I am not.
K: No, you’re not.
C: But sometimes they want to talk about nontherapeutic things. And they’re like “I just love Kisstopher. I just, like, it’s really great to be there, but I don’t understand how she survives when I’m her only client.”
K: (laughs)
C: Because, in contrast with the U.S. practice of usually booking 50-minute sessions with 10 minutes in between, so everybody’s an hour, you leave a half hour in between.
K: Yes.
C: Which means that, typically, by the time a client arrives, the previous client has left. Even if the previous client leaves late and the new one arrives early.
K: And that’s because my waiting room is across the hall in a completely different unit.
C: Yeah.
K: So, you can come up the stairs and, in the unit, close the door, and there’s nobody in that unit. So, it’s a… so, they’re apartments for people to live in. So, it’s a 2dk; so that’s a two-room apartment with a dining rom and kitchen. And there’s nobody in it. It’s completely empty.
C: Yeah.
K: And, so, that’s my – well, it’s not complete – it has a table and chairs and a bunch of toys because that’s where I also do play therapy.
C: Mhm.
K: And then there’s my unit where I do therapy, and it’s also a 2dk. And it’s across the hall. So, they never even cross – they usually, can’t say never – they usually don’t even pass each other on the street. And everybody always assumes I don’t see Japanese nationals.
C: Yes.
K: So, if they see a Japanese national on the street, they wouldn’t assume that they were
C: Your client.
K: Yeah.
C: But you don’t see every foreigner who lives in the area.
K: There are just like, I think of them as free-range foreigners, there are free-range foreigners that live around my office. So, I see them out and about every now and then because now that Meijo – now that Meijo university is really close to Ozone station, a lot of people live near Ozone station.
C: Yeah, the new Meijo University campus is over by the dome. And that campus handles the international relations and the English, and the different international stuff. So, they are promoting that for international students and for Japanese students who want to go to other countries after graduation.
K: Yeah.
C: So, I’ve noticed when I’m in that area that a lot of people want to try out their English or different things. Like, college-age people.
K: Yeah.
C: And I have some professor friends who work there, so.
K: I want to make a correction on something I said earlier. I used to hug and kiss my friends in the United States.
C: Mhm.
K: It used to be one hug and, like a mwah, but it was actually cheek.
C: Yeah. The noise.
K: Yeah. I would do – because I just did like the hands to my face and did the noise. To demonstrate how I kiss. (laughs) I just cheek and then go “mwah” like you know.
C: Yeah.
K: And then, you and I agree that that noise is the kiss.
C: It is. Without that noise, it’s not the kiss.
K: No, it’s not. And so sometimes we do silent smooches, but for the most part, we make sure to (kiss sound) at the end.
C: Yeah.
K: So that way you know you’ve been kissed.
C: Yes.
K: (laughs)
C: It’s weird, like, with the touching thing. I find that Americans were a lot more aggressive about making… moderate level of contact with me.
K: What do you mean? I don’t know what a moderate level of contact is.
C: Like, some people would be like “I’m going to shake your hand, but I’m going to do it in a way that’s going to try and crush your hand.”
K: Oh, that stupid macho crap with like you can win a discussion based on how aggressive your handshake is?
C: Yeah, like “I’m going to grab your hand and yank it all around and not let go of it.”
K: “I’ve dominated you.”
C: Yeah.
K: No, you’ve just shown that you’re an asshole.
C: Right?
K: And that you’re an insecure asshole.
C: Okay. And I feel like “yeah, you might be able to dominate my hand, probably not, but you know, I’ve got arthritis, so….”
K: Well, and you have really big hands.
C: Yeah.
K: So, most people can’t get their hand around your hand to do
C: Do the crushing.
K: Yeah. It takes a really – like, they have to have a really large hand. Because your ring fing – the size on your ring finger’s like what, a ten or eleven?
C: I… don’t – it’s at least a twelve depending on how big I am – depending on how much I weigh at the time.
K: (laughs) But your hands aren’t fat, they’re big. You don’t have like… meaty paws. We just ordered you a ring off the internet.
C: I think that was a twelve.
K: Okay. So, yeah, that was a whole thing. So… you have rally big hands. And, like, the palm part of your hand is pretty wide.
C: Yeah.
K: Like, when you make a fist, it looks like a freaking sledgehammer.
C: (laughs)
K: To me. It’s how I’ve always envisioned it. Like sledgehammers at the end of your – whereas I have like little pebbles at the ends of my wrists. My hands are so small.
C: Well, it does tend to intimidate people when I make a fist because I do say “sledgehammers” when I make them.
K: Yeah. (laughs)
C: I make a fist and go “sledgehammers.”
(laughter)
C: “Oh, I’m not going to mess with you now.”
(laughter)
K: Like, the most violent we are is when you play your video games, and I cheer you on and you get in a fight. “Beat him up, babe, kick their ass. Get them. Beat them. Destroy them.” So, yeah. So, lately you’ve been playing a game where you like rock a baby, and you like beat people up. And… roam around and stuff, so – whoa, my mic almost fell.
C: Death Stranding, for anybody who was trying to figure
K: What?
C: The name of the game is Death Stranding.
K: What?
C: Our viewers have heard it. Do you want me to say it again?
K: Yes.
C: Death. Stranding.
K: Death stranding?
C: Yup.
K: So, like “I’m stranding you and now you’re dead” so like the goal of the game is to strand people?
C: No. But, that’s completely off=topic and would take far longer than the time we have remaining to discuss, but… it’s mostly strand in the sense of courts and allegiance.
K: Okay.
C: But, anyway,
K: No, I want to know death strand. People are along to ride. Just trust them to go on the ride with us. What are you on about?
C: Well, I was going to say that I’m much more of a passive violence kind of person.
K: Okay, and Death Strand is passive violence? I saw you totally kicking ass in the game.
C: Okay, bu
K: And then you like, someone tried to mug you, and you beat them up and took their truck.
C: Yes.
K: I don’t think that’s a spoiler alert.
C: No, but that’s the kind of violence that I was trained in. And that’s that.
K: Okay, you’re trained and best at beating people up and taking their things?
C: No, you’re not watching the game carefully because what happens is that I stand there and they attack me, and then I shove them out of the way.
K: But you knock them to the ground.
C: I tie them up after I shove them so they can’t bother me again.
K: (laughs)
C: That part doesn’t happen in real life.
K: Okay, so yeah, I usually see you at that point. And, then, while you’re tying them up, I’m telling you to beat them up?
C: Yes.
K: Okay. So, when Chad plays video games, I just randomly shout things at him like “kick their ass babe.” I just randomly comment on the game because I randomly look at what he’s doing. And then, whatever he’s at in the game, I either comment or ask questions until I understand.
C: “Kick their ass.” I’m playing solitaire.
K: (laughs)
C: “But that king, I saw him looking at you.”
K: (laughs) Yes. So, I just totally like a really random – I think of it as like a random pop-in.
C: Yeah.
K: So, for me, I feel like you’re a lot more solitary in Japan than – no, I should correct. You’re a lot more solitary in the past, I want to say six months, than you were our entire time in Japan.
C: Mhm. Yeah.
K: Six to eight months, maybe?
C: Maybe. Yeah.
K: So, and you’ve always worked, almost always worked remote.
C: Yeah. We’ve talked about this before.
K: Yeah. So, why do you think that you’ve become much more solitary do you think?
C: I think because I’m not working in a Japanese industry at the moment. So, Japan is the biggest market in the world for academic editing, which is what I was doing.
K: Mhm.
C: And so, there were always people around who were also doing it. Academic editing or translation or whatever.
K: But you wouldn’t hang out with them, would you? Were you?
C: At least once a month.
K: Really?
C: Yeah. We’ve talked about the ACCJ, which I sued to belong to
K: Yeah. Those people are not doing academic editing.
C: Quite a few of them were, actually.
K: Okay. Shocker didn’t know that. Thought they were all owning their businesses.
C: No. There were editors and translators and people who manage the editors and translators…
K: Well you did stuff besides the ACCJ. You would go out sometimes as often as once or twice a week.
C: Yeah.
K: And now you’re not hanging out with as many people.
C: I think I wasn’t hanging out with people when I was going out. I was just going out for walks and things. And, lately, it’s just been more painful.
K: Yeah. I think it’s been a year since I hung out socially.
C: Yeah.
K: Like over a year since I hung out socially. I have to get out my calendar and look because I don’t hang out socially.
C: I hang out online.
K: Yeah. I hang out online, too. I love our tweeps. I love our Musick Notes.
C: So, one of the thi- nice things, for me – about hanging out online is the lack of touch. And I know some people are touch-starved, but I am not touch-starved.
K: We touch each other: every time we pass each other, we touch.
C: yeah.
K: So, I think if you were to die or something horrible happened to you, that’s the only way that we’re going to separate. Something like death. Um (laughs) that’s so ominous. The only way we’re separating is if you die. (laughs) So… so, for me, I don’t envision a world where I’d be touch-starved.
C: Mhm.
K: And then I also touch Rasta lots. We get lots of hugs from Rasta.
C: But Japanese people, for the most part, fall into one of three categories. There’s the Japanese businessmen that want to shake hands to show that they can shake hands. And I’m like “great, let’s go to dinner, and I’ll watch you use a fork and you can watch me use chopsticks.”
K: (laughs)
C: Let’s do this thing. There’s most people, who don’t touch me at all. Which I appreciate. And then there’s the people who randomly decide that they want to run into me on the street. And it’s that – or on the subway or whatever – and it’s that last person that my stolidity is most useful. Because I will just stand there and let you hurt yourself against me. I don’t feel bad about that.
K: For me, one thing that I really don’t miss from the United States is women flirting with you and touching you. Like, laughing and then running their hand down your chest, laughing and then running their hand down your arm, rubbing your back, all of that stuff. I don’t miss any of that.
C: I don’t either. Because it’s so awkward because it wasn’t things that I wanted. But… if I say what’s in my heart at the moment, then I’m being aggressive with them.
K: Yeah.
C: Because any time that you are shouting at somebody “quit fucking touching me. Don’t you fucking dare, what the fuck are you thinking?” You’re the aggressive one. And it’s like no, I grew up wit a childhood of abuse, and people touching me whether I want it to or not
K: Yeah. And I don’t miss people thinking they can touch your head. Or your beard. I don’t know why bald head or beard is an invitation to Americans – for Americans to touch.
C: Yeah. It’s not an invitation.
K: No. It’s just a personal choice on how you want to look and how you want to move through the world. It’s not like “hey, look at me, I’m bald. Touch me.”
C: Right.
K: Your hair… left. (laughs)
C: It’s not like walking around with a free hugs sin.
K: Yeah. I feel like your hair migrated – to make the joke – migrated from the top of your head to your face.
C: Yes. It went south.
K: Yes, your hair went south. So, I don’t understand – so, I was bald for quite a few years by choice. I would shave my head, and I got really good for sensing when people were going to touch my head. So, I’m really good at not being touched on my head or my face. So, I really don’t like those two areas of my body being touched at all. Ever. By anyone. Those and we’ve talked about my ears, like ooo. Don’t make my ears hot.
C: Yes.
K: I do not want to kick your ass. Do not make my ears hot.
C: Even I don’t make your ears hot.
K: I’m getting stirred just thinking about it. So, one person who used to get away with touching my ears on a regular basis is our son. But he wouldn’t actually touch my ears. He would kiss my cheek on my jaw and then breathe deeply – like a (sniffle sound) into my ear as he kissed me. So, I had to do it just for everyone to cringe the way I cringed. Sorry.
C: (laughs)
K: Sorry about it. Sorry, not sorry. Like….
C: That was like an auditory touch.
K: Yes. And I feel like everybody go on twitter and tell Rasta “do not sniff in your mother’s ear when you kiss her.”
(laughter)
K: You all don’t do what we ask anyway, so I’m not doing him any harm by saying that, so you know.
C: Mhm.
K: When you listen to this episode, bubs, know I love you. Mommy loves you. I love you. Mean it.
(laughter)
K: He’s like “why do you say that?” I don’t know. I just do. I just like it. Because it makes it sound so fake. “I love you, mean it.” (laughs)
C: Okay, so I don’t know if I’ve told this story or not, but I think it’s relevant to the Japanese aversion to touch in general.
K: Okay. Do you think the Japanese have an aversion to touch?
C: I think they… in general, that they do in social situations. I think on a person level that they probably have the same desire for touch as everybody else. Collectively.
K: Okay.
C: I think that, socially, they don’t want to make contact in things that they would not be clearly in the right.
K: Okay.
C: So, I may have told this story before, but I think it’s funny. I was in Tokyo for work, and I had my cane with me, and the train was crowded. And I wanted to sit down, and there was this guy just taking up several seats.
K: Like leg spreading and all that. Manspreading.
C: Yeah. In the, in the disabled seating. Like, clearly not disabled. I know some disabilities are not visible and all of that, but his behavior indicated he was fully aware of what he was doing, and he was like “fuck that, I don’t care about disabled people, old people, pregnant people, whatever.” So, his legs were so, spread so far apart, that I could stand there with my cane in between them. Because there was a pole in between them anyway.
K: Mhm.
C: So, he had the pole in between them, my cane in between them, and he was still almost lying down on the bench. And I was standing maybe six inches from him. Crowded subway. So, his stop comes, and he says nothing. I was expecting an excuse me or something. He says nothing, so I don’t move. And he starts like bobbing his head, like making motions like “I have to get up.”
K: Mhm.
C: I just stand there. Because he’s an asshole. He hasn’t given up his seat for me. Not only that, he hasn’t given up any of his seats for me. He has multiple
K: And he hasn’t just simply said “excuse me.”
C: Right.
K: It’s all – I mean, it’s not hard.
C: That’s what I’m saying. I’m waiting for him to say, “Excuse me” and I’ll move out of his way. But he doesn’t. Instead, he slithers down the entire bench.
K: (laughs)
C: Like, awkwardly trying to avoid all contact with me. It took him like two to three minutes to get off of the subway bench when instead of just asking. Because he’s trying very hard not to make contact with me. Because if he pushes me or whatever, he’s clearly in the wrong.
K: Yeah.
C: But… he’s so, I don’t know, like angry-afraid is how I think of it. I see people do this. They get angry that I exist but then afraid to do anything about it.
K: Mhm.
C: And he almost missed his stop. And then once he moved, in my mind, the entire train clapped. In reality
K: (laughs) Was it a slow clap?
C: Yeah. In reality, I sat down, and two other people sat down, too, because he had been taking up three seats.
K: Yeah. So, I think you have told that story on the cast before, but
C: It’s a good story.
K: Yeah. So, I hope that you guys enjoyed it, and I hope you guys enjoyed hanging out with us. We enjoyed hanging out with you. We love each and every single Musick Note, and we’re so humbled and honored that you take time out to listen to us ramble on about the things we ramble on about. And we hope to talk with you again next week or, if you’re getting caught up on episodes, the next five minutes. I don’t know why we’ve been saying that a lot, recently, at the end. I think you started it and I really liked it.
C: I did start it, yeah.
K: Yeah. And I really liked it. So, yeah.
C: We don’t want people to feel like they have to wait a week if they have episodes waiting.
K: Yeah, no, you can binge listen. Or binge read if you’re reading our transcripts because we are an inclusive cast. I’m so proud of us for that.
C: Yeah.
K: So, yeah. Bye.
C: Bye-bye.
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