Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but that eye is shaped to find particular things beautiful. We talk about attraction, how it’s shaped, how it differs by place, upbringing, and how it’s tied into sex.

Content note: Medical procedures and sex are discussed in some detail.

Transcript

K: So, lately I’ve been thinking about changing taste and attraction and all that good stuff.

C: But your taste is me; don’t change it.

K: (laughs) But my taste becoming only you is a change.

C: Yes, it is.

K: Because I think we started out as being open and poly and then over the years we became monogamous. And I think what people find most interested about that for us is you made the decision for us – that you always wanted to monogamy. 

C: Right.

K: And I was in my fear place about monogamy. And I had a lot of sexist ideas about whether or not men can be monogamous. And I also, being pansexual, find myself being attracted to a lot of people.

C: Right.

K: And, when you and I go together, I was dating a lot of couples. And enjoying the couples I was dating. (laughs)

C: Yes.

K: So, I kind of feel like when we first met, my preference and taste were couples. 

C: Mhm.

K: What do you think?

C: That seems – well, it didn’t seem so much to be couples so much as people you knew couldn’t possibly try to take it monogamous with you without it becoming awkward.

K: Yes. That is (laughs) that is a very good description of it. It’s awesome. And I find it’s really interesting that, like – so, I rarely talk about what’s current in my practice, but right now the majority of my practice is poly. And I have a lot of newbies to being poly. And… they’re finding out new attractions for themselves and new tastes, and I think the adventure into polyamory – and so what polyamory is, everybody defines it differently for themselves, but it’s consensual non-monogamy. 

C: Right.

K: So, it can be open or poly, and what makes the difference for me between openness and polyamory is what the emotional roles are. I think, for me, being polyamorous means, I can love more than one person, and both people I’m in love with know that I’m in love with them, and it’s no secret. 

C: So, why isn’t polygamy the opposite of monogamy?

K: Um… because that involves marriage.

C: So, why isn’t it monoamory?

K: I don’t know. Maybe it is. I’ve never looked that up. You know we don’t google on this show, though.

C: It’s just a question that occurred to me here. I was listening to you saying, you know, monogamy versus polyamory. I was thinking feeling amorous – amor is one of the types of love. 

K: Yeah. And I call myself mono.

C: Right. 

K: So, actually, I identify – personally, myself – as a cis-gendered polyamorous woman who’s pansexual. A pansexual cis-gendered polyamorous woman in a monogamous relationship.

C: Yeah. I don’t identify that way.

K: (laughs) How do you identify?

C: If you substitute woman for man, then yes, I still don’t identify that way.

K: You’re still not pansexual. Yeah. And… you did not enjoy polyamory.

C: No. 

K: You did not enjoy open. You enjoy monogamy. 

C: Yeah. I’m a cis-gendered heterosexual guy – man – who enjoys monogamy.

K: Yes. And I really enjoy it. I don’t feel like I’m losing anything being monogamous with you.

C: Right.

K: So, I feel very, very, very fortunate in that – and, sorry people who hate repetition I do repetition so much – um… you’re being sexy. 

C: I can’t help it.

K: I know. I just looked over, and I felt like Chad was doing something sexier than he was before. (laughs) Chad sometimes does it on purpose just to mess with me, and then he does like – he has the most innocent face. He can make the face of the most innocent person on the planet, and it looks so sincere like “I’ve done nothing. Why would you say this to me?” 

C: I am the most innocent person on the planet. That’s why all I have to do is make my own face. 

K: Really? And now he’s looking his “I’m convinced I’m right, so you should believe me” face. 

C: Yes.

(laughter)

C: Would I lie to you?

K: Oh my gosh. Do not do song lyrics. Don’t do it. So, I don’t feel like I’m giving anything up, but I do believe that wanting to love more than one person is a sexuality. And type of sexual preference. And I don’t think people can help… wanting to be monogamous or wanting to be poly. And I don’t think people can help who they’re attracted to, but I do think people can help the way they talk about attraction.

C: Absolutely. I think – I know some people who like to work at one job. They just have one job they like to work at. And some people who are unhappy if they ever have only one job. They like to work multiple jobs.

K: Yeah. That’s me. I like working multiple jobs. 

C: Right.

K: I need multiple irons in the fire. 

C: So, and I think with relationships, it’s the same thing. I see it as being completely distinct from whether or not you like multiple sexes. Like… being heterosexual or being

K: Yeah, and you can be heterosexual and polyamorous, just for the record.

C: That’s what I’m saying. It’s the kind of… one versus multiple partners spectrum is different and entirely distinct from the what I like sexually for a partner spectrum.

K: Yeah. And, so, for me, the reason that… I was the one who actually said “okay, what we’re doing is foolish, let’s just be monogamous.” 

C: Mhm.

K: Because you weren’t taking advantage of it at the time. And I was coming home feeling disappointed. Disappointed that they weren’t you.

C: Yeah.

K: And it just felt like that’s unfair to the people I’m partnering with. And

C: Right. To set them against this impossible standard.

K: Yes. I really felt like it. And I just – I wasn’t enjoying the conversations. I didn’t feel like I was growing. So, for me, I always viewed… being polyamorous as – sorry I have to clear my throat. Being polyamorous as a way to grow. A way to expand my mind. A way to feel secure in myself. A way to feel secure in my relationships. And a way to avoid being cheated on. I really don’t like cheating. 

C: Right.

K: And I think cheating – anyone who cheats, it’s about the person who does it. I have cheated. I’m not proud of that. And that was completely about me and now who my partner was. It was about me.

C: Yeah. And that wasn’t on me.

K: Yeah, no, I’ve never cheated on Chad. So. But, I was really – so I’ve been really comfortable with us being monogamous. And so, with attraction, for me, I think that at minimum it’s biased to say I’m not attracted to a specific race or a specific skin tone. And I think it’s outright racist if you say it in a racist way. The reason – I’m so torn between like, is it… I fully believe that it is an implicit bias. But I don’t know – is it ra- I struggle with this a lot because people come to me, and a lot of the couples are saying “I never knew Japanese people were attractive.”

C: Right.

K: And I feel like that’s so racist, but I don’t feel like the person saying it is racist. And it’s like… it fucks with me. I’m like… why don’t – how – like, “what are you saying to me?” “Well, you know, American Japanese people just aren’t attractive.” And I’m like “what are you saying to me? Have you seen every single American Japanese person and said that they were not attractive? Is that really something you’re saying to me right now?” 

C” Okay. Like, that would be some dedication to meet every single Japanese American person. 

K: Right? That’s some dedication.

C: And every day you’re only meeting adults, so every day you’ve got to meet the new adults or what? What’s going on there? 

K: Yeah, so, I’m like “that’s racist,” but how do I help them evolve past that racism?

C: Well, I think, for me, there are several different aspects of it here. One is like… there’s racism in that sense which people usually use it, which is bigotry against particular ethnicities, culture, or whatever. There’s racism in the sense of sociology – of the structural disadvantaging of certain groups based on ethnicity, culture, genetics, whatever that they want to define it that way. And then there’s the products of that kind of racism, and I think a lot of times people when are like “I never knew that such and such group was attractive,” that’s a product of the structural racism.

K: Yes. The structural racism in the United States. Which is why I don’t want to live there.

C: Right.

K: So, for me, the… I think of it as the check to me is how I do it to determine if something’s racist or not. And you guys can hate me for this or understand that I am a person who is evolving and growing. I ask, “if they say that about one of the groups that I belong to, would it feel racist to me?”

C: Mhm.

K: And I instantly get to “yes.” And so, for me, when I hear people say that dark skin is not attractive, it sets me off. It makes me so, so angry. Like… oof. Have a meltdown angry. I think that dark skin is beautiful. I think it’s rich. I think it’s creamy. I like deep, dark, sumptuous tones. I think that it’s luxurious. I just think it’s gorgeous. And, to me, there’s nothing like – like, goodness, for real – like dark, like so dark it’s purple skin, that’s freshly oiled up, so it’s got that sheen on it. Oh man. That’s sexy to me. That is so sexy to me. On the other end of the spectrum, I really enjoy how pale and white your skin is. I think it’s so creamy and sumptuous. You don’t lotion. That’s something that’s interesting to me. Your skin doesn’t change color when you lotion.

C: Uh-huh.

K: Didn’t know that about white people.

C: It’s not necessarily true for white people. It’s true for me.

K: Okay. 

C: You sued to tell me

K: So, see, I’m still learning and evolving because – to be honest – when it came to white men, I haven’t dated. I haven’t been in a relationship. You’re the only white man I’ve been in a relationship with. I’ve had sex with white men, I’ve enjoyed white men, and I’ve been in a relationship with white women. And they lotioned. 

C: Mmm.

K: Yo don’t – you’re the only person I’ve been in a relationship with that didn’t lotion.

C: And you were very heavily pushing it when we got together. You were like “you should lotion.” 

K: Yes.

C: And I’m like “no, I really don’t like the way it feels.” “Just try it. You’ll like it. I’ll lotion you up. Let me do it.” And then you did

K: (laughs) We had fun with that one for a hot minute.

C: But then you did, like… “it just vanished. Where did it go? Where did the lotion go?” And you were like “where is it going?” I’m like “I am unconditionally leathered.”

K: I was like “why isn’t it working?” Not “where is it going?” I was like “why isn’t it working” because I know where it goes. It absorbs into your skin. Lotion absorbs into everyone’s skin. I was like “why isn’t it working” because your skin wasn’t changing. Your skin looked exactly the same after I lotioned it.

C: Yeah. So, I assume that I am a human man, but I haven’t been tested for it.

K: (laughs) So, for me, I find every skin tone to be gorgeous and sexy and beautiful. I find skin to be gorgeous, and I find different textures of skin to be gorgeous and beautiful. My sexuality is based on personality and interest. So, to be honest, the people I’ve had sex with in my life – most often, this was the thought: “I bet they can fuck.” And then, from there, I would go up to them and say, “would you like to fuck?”

C: So, you were just conducting an empirical experiment.

K: No, I was getting my swerve on.

C: Oh okay.

K: I was on an infinite search for the ultimate boom, and I found it.

C: Mm. Yup.

K: Yeah. You know I told you that when we were best friends before. 

C: Yes. Yes.

K: And you were like “you have a lot of sexual partners” and I was like -not in a judgmental way – and I was like “yes, I’m in search of the perfect boom.” And you were like “what’s that?” And I said “see? When you have it, you know.” And then I sang the song “she don’t go the boom like I do.” 

C: Yeah.

K: And that just confused you even more. And then when we had sex, and I was like “you got the boom,” you were like “okay, so I think that’s a good thing.” And I’m like “it is an awesome thing.”

C: It still was a while before I understood whether having junk in your trunk was a good thing.

K: Yes. (laughs)

C: Wouldn’t you want to clean out the junk occasionally to have room for more stuff?

K: So, I don’t know why you had sex with me because I describe myself as like you are going to have the worst sex of your life. I am going to lay on my beck, and I am not going to do anything.

C: Yes. 

K: That’s what I told you.

C: Yes, it is.

K: And then you inspired me, and I didn’t.

C: Yes. 

K: So, this is definitely not safe for work. 

(laughter)

C: If you’re listening to the podcast during work, and your work is not podcast related, you probably shouldn’t be listening to the podcast anyway. 

K: Don’t say that. They should always be listening to our podcast. (laughs) Just put your headphones in. So, you inspired me, and I did like tricks and flips and stuff, but I’m always like “until I have the first orgasm, it’s not going to be fun.” I’ll put the work in to help you get there, and I’ve never faked an orgasm in my life – very proud of that fact.

C: “Let’s get from A to N as quickly as possible because we need to get to the O.”

K: Yes, we do. And I’m so about the O. So, I own that I was very selfish. And the – I liked to have the first orgasm. And I’m very orgasmic, so it’s not that hard. I feel very fortunate in that I have a very sensitive g-spot. And I know not every woman has a sensitive g-spot. And it just – I want to put something out there. Women who struggle having orgasms, they are not frigid. They do not have any sort of sexual dysfunction. Stop orgasm shaming women. Stop that. Do the work. Figure out how to help them get there. Do your job. 

C: Well, and I would say, by default – like… whether it’s a man or a woman, non-binary person, whatever, I think if somebody is having difficulty

K: Because there are men that also struggle to orgasm.

C: Yeah. I think that if you

K: And non-binary folks.

C: Right. So, if you struggle with it, absolutely if it’s accessible go see a doctor about that. But that doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily a medical problem.

K: Yes. So, you had a torsioned testicle that was really painful for you. And when you had your vasectomy, we found out you had a torsioned testicle.

C: Yes. For medical details, my vas deferens was wrapped around it several times.

K: Yes.

C: Which it’s not supposed to be.

K: So, tell people what a vas deferens is.

C: It’s a little tiny tube, and so when you have a vasectomy, what they do is they snip it. And it leads from the testicles to – it leads the sperm out. The epididymis and all that, I forget the details, but what I do know is that in terms of pre-vasectomy and post-vasectomy, there’s not a vast difference. 

K: Yeah. Womp womp.

C: She’s doing her silent laugh. Her silent laugh is like the most intense laugh of all.

K: Oh my gosh. That is so sad for you babe. And I’m happy that we got the vasectomy for you. And there’s also some antidepressants cause really painful orgasms for men.

C: Yeah.

K: And it makes them feel like they’re actually orgasming knives, and so it makes them reluctant to org- reluctant to orgasm because it’s so incredibly painful. And there’s a lot going on with sexual health. And I think that we need to stop shaming people over their sexual health and stop shaming people over their – the sensitivity of their sexual organs. Because we can’t really, you know, help that. There’s something called a g-shot where they can go in and inject the g-spot and enlarge it so that it becomes more sensitive. And then there’s surgical procedures for men, but most surgical procedures for men result in sterilization. So, it’s tough.

C: I think that… you touched on something briefly, I think without meaning to, in that there’s a difference between sexual attraction and romantic attraction. 

K: Yeah, there is.

C: And so, I think that you had sexual attraction with a lot of people, but when I met you, you specifically did not want to be in romantic relationships with any of your sexual partners. 

K: Correct. I did not.

C: So, you’ve… to my understanding, always liked to have a close circle of friends, but few of them are because you would take so long to trust a friend.

K: Yeah, it does. Yeah it does. Very slow to trust.

C: And so, part of the difference in attraction between us was I was your friend first. Like, not in a prioritization way, but in a temporal way. We were friends for a number of months before you managed to convince me to demonstrate to you whether or not I had the boom.

K: Yes. It was after I tried to get you to sleep with everyone else in the group.

C: Yes.

K: And I was like “wait a minute. He’s a catch, why am I- “so, just so everybody knows, Rasta was five when we met, and I didn’t want any of my sexual partners to ever meet my child. And so, I had just decided that my idea was that I wouldn’t have another romantic partner until Rasta was grown and out of the house because I didn’t want him to experience multiple partners. Because in addition to being in an out of the foster care system, my mother had multiple partners, and she married one person twice who was really bad and abusive. And then she had a prison pen-pal who came and lived with us for a while. And then she had people that she dated – one of them was dating her to get my underwear, gross. So, for me, my idea – and then when I was really small, we lived in a nudist colony, and… that was not sexual in any way, but they often engaged in group sex. And didn’t care whether or not – kids were never involved, it was completely safe, but whether to not we witnessed it was not a big deal. 

So, my mom grew up with – I grew up with my mom’s ideas of sexuality being sex is something openly discussed. Being a nudist is not a big deal, and I don’t feel traumatized by any of those things. I know for some people it would be. I’m personally not traumatized by that. Um… and, for me, I never associated sex with love.

C: Mhm.

K: And I never associated sex with self-worth. I always associated sex with fun. Like something interesting to do. And most of the people I was having sex with, I wouldn’t have a conversation. I was trying to get from conversation to sex as quickly as possible. And I found couples were the easiest way to do that because my favorite couple was like – the female partner in the couple was like “let’s get to it already.” And the male partner was always wanting to play games, and we were both like “you know what we’re here for. Come on, let’s do it.” And so, we would have sex, and that would be it. I know nothing about them.

C: Like you don’t go to the bar to sit eating peanuts.

K: Exactly. And so, I really liked them because it was like “come on, let’s get it, let’s do this.” And that was really nice. And I had to break up with a couple because the idea – the man wanted to be in a thruple, and the woman didn’t. And another couple always turned into a foursome, so that was weird to me. So, I really, really enjoyed dating couples. And I liked the safety of it. I like not being the primary partner. I liked not doing emotional work. 

C: Right.

K: I liked the freedom to just get in, get out. And… not have to do birthdays, anniversary, valentine’s day. And that was one of the huge attractions about you getting to know you as best friends. We talked about things openly and honestly.

C: Yeah.

K: And you were like – I’m like, “anniversaries are lame.” And you were like “yeah, they’re arbitrary.” And I was like “they are arbitrary.” 

C: Yeah.

K: Because when is the anniversary?

C: Because you see even back then, I was subtly correcting your language.

(laughter) 

K: Well, why don’t you do anniversaries?

C: Because they’re arbitrary.

K: (laughs)

C: I think – okay, so… I was having a conversation about this at work a while ago. I think it’s relevant.

K: Okay.

C: Back in – back in November, during my interview actually. One of the questions they asked was “analyze the effect of this sale that we had.”

K: Analyze what?

C: The effect of this sale – this promotion, this discount – that we had. This was an interview question. And, so, I said “well you have to look at not only did you make more money during it, but did you have people waiting to buy things they could have bought earlier or buying things earlier than they would have.” 

K: Mhm.

C: Like, would they have bought it at the regular price, just at a different time. I think for anniversaries, some people get so focused on having the perfect anniversary and being super nice and giving gifts and all of that, that they don’t do the things that they would ordinarily otherwise do to maintain that relationship. Like, yeah, I’m treating you crappy – like I’m sneaking around doing stuff, refusing to tell you what I’m doing, lying about it, but when you find out that I was sneaking around and lying to you to plan this anniversary party… you’re going to be so happy.

K: Mmm. Yeah. Like sneaking around – telling you I’m going to work, really going shopping for the anniversary. Lying about who I’m talking to because I’m planning a surprise party.

C: Right.

K: So, you don’t like all of that deception.

C: I don’t like that deception because even if that deception is for a quote, unquote, “good reason,” like an anniversary party, it’s still a deception. It’s still like… I’m demonstrating how easily I could fool you and how little I care about – about deceiving you.

K: For me, I didn’t like anniversaries because they were a pain in the ass. Like, when is our anniversary? When we met? The first time we kissed? Our first date? Our first time we had sex? The first time we went out of time? When we got married? When you proposed? I actually proposed, but, like… when? And that’s what I told you “which one of those dates are our anniversary?” You were like “they could all be anniversaries,” and I’m like no. No. I’m not doing that. I’m not doing anniversaries. I suck at anniversaries. I won’t remember them. And I told you honestly, I only know when your birthday is in October. It’s not October, and I know when your birthday is, I think. (redacted) 

C: That’s completely wrong.

K: It’s completely wrong?

C: Yes.

K: When’s your birthday?

C: Like I’m going to give it out on air and give everybody my security codes.

K: (laughs) Like people can do stuff if they know your birthday?

C: Yes, they can.

K: Really?

C: Yes.

K: Are you being serous?

C: I am being serious.

K: Then why do you tweet about it?

C: I think like the… I don’t know.

K: Okay. So, your birthday’s in November.

C: Or January. Or

K: Yes. And you were born in the 70s.

C: Yes, I was

K: But not the 60s.

C: Yes, not the 60s.

K: Because you and I were born in different decades. 

C: Yes, we were.

K: Legitimate truth.

C: Yes.

K: And I am a woman of a certain age.

C: You are. 

K: I’m a woman in her 50s. 

C: Yes. 

K: (laughs) So… for our anniversary, I never know when our anniversary is. And we actually have a framed picture that has our anniversary on it, and two champagne glasses in plain view that has the date of our anniversary on it. And I do n to know when we were married. I know we were married in October, and that it was unseasonably warm that day. 

C: Yeah.

K: Like, the weather was gorgeous. It was the most beautiful day in all of Monterey’s history that year. They were terrified for us that it was going to rain, and they were terrified for us that a typhoon was going to come in. Because we got married on the beach. And it didn’t. Everything worked out perfectly. It was not overcast at all in any way. But I don’t know what day. What day was the…

C: I think it was the 22nd. 

K: What?

C: The 22nd. 

K: Wow. The 22nd?

C: Yeah.

K: The 22nd?

C: Yup.

K: Okay, right on. That is so weird. It blows my mind every time you tell me. And, so, I know we’ve been together for over 20 years now. 

C: Yes. 

K: But I suck at birthdays and anniversaries. Like, I’m not sure what Rasta’s birthday is. I think it’s (redacted)?

C: And again, you’re giving out the personal information.

K: (laughs) But it’s wrong information, so it doesn’t matter because the dates are wrong. Because I’m always wrong. 

C: I’ll probably just edit those out. We don’t usually edit, but I think I’m going to edit those out.

K: You’re going to edit those out?

C: Yeah.

K: Okay. So, just so you all know, I gave out personal information, and Chad edited them out for safety reasons. Because… I don’t believe that.

C: I know you don’t believe that, but I want to talk about attraction.

K: Okay.

C: So, I said before that I think that, as far as racism goes, there’s racism in terms of bigotry – which is the common understanding – there’s the academic understanding, and there’s the products of that.

K: Okay.

C: I think also, in terms of attraction, if you say “I like this” or “I don’t like that,” that’s not necessarily racism, but the timing that you choose to say it at can be a from of racism. 

K: I think that it’s racist to not be attracted to a particular skin tone or race.

C: See, and I think that people….

K: Because that’s treating that race or skin tone as a monolith.

C: Okay.

K: I can – I do not think it’s racist for people to not be attracted to me. But I am a singular thing. I’m just Kisstopher. But to say “I don’t like mixed-race people” is racist. Because it’s treating mixed-race people as a monolith.

C: So, but you made a distinction there. You said you don’t’ think it’s racist to not be attracted to you. But you do think it’s racist to say, “I’m not attracted to mixed-raced people.”

K: To think it, to feel it, to believe it. To believe that anything is a monolith, to me, is racist.

C: Okay. Do you think that asexual people are racist?

K: Asexuality is different. Asexuality is not

C: But they’re not attracted to

K: It’s a spectrum, and it’s sexual – it’s sexual spectrum.

C: Right.

K: And so, there are some asexual people that do penetrative sex, and there are some asexual people that don’t do – that do no romantic touching.

C: Right.

K: That is a sexual preference. I do not think it is bigoted to say, “I’m gay.” 

C: Right.

K: So, we’re not talking about bigotry, we’re talking about racism. And, so, for asexual people to say, “I’m only asexual against black people,” yes, that’s racist.

C: Well, yes.

K: To say “I’m asexual against humanity” or “I’m asexual as just my own sexual preference” – sexual preference is not racism. Sexual preference based on race is racism. Because you haven’t – you’re treating a group of people as a monolith. 

C: Okay. I think that, for me

K: But doing away with ethnicity and saying all of humanity – “there’s no one in humanity I want to have sex with” – that’s not racist. That’s saying all humans. 

C: Okay.

KL: So, for me, I don’t want to have sex with animals. I’m not into bestiality. That doesn’t make me racist against animals. Dogs are a different race than humans. I’m not

C: They’re different species.

K: Different species. So, I’m not being racist against the species.

C: Right.

K: So, if you’re looking at an entire species, then you’re not being racist. Because race is something that was made up – and we can debate this, science shows it

C: Yeah, we know social construct.

K: And so, ethnicity, saying there’s certain ethnicities that I’m not attracted to is racist. 

C: Okay. But I think, again, you’re coming back to the saying – and the reason I’m focused on this is because, for me, I don’t think about who I’m attracted to or not. Even before we got together. Now, I’m just like “if you’re not Kisstopher, I’m not interested.” It’s pretty simple. 

K: Yeah. Love that.

C: But, before that, I didn’t think about like “okay, who’s hot and white?” I was just like looking around and saying, “who’s hot to me?” Which doesn’t necessarily agree with who’s hot to other people.

K: And so, if everybody in the room, let’s say there’s every ethnicity in the room, and you only find one person in that room attractive, that does not make you a racist.

C: Right. But I think if you go around and tell every other person “hey, I don’t find you attractive,” 

K: That makes you a dick.

C: Right.

K: That doesn’t make you a racist.

C: I think some people lack the exposure to have found somebody of a particular ethnicity attractive because they have known that many people of that ethnicity. 

K: So, for you, this is something that you struggle with.

C: Right.

K: You struggle with ignorance versus racist. 

C: Right.

K: To me, it is a racist view if you have the ignorance to not understand that I am not a monolith. That I do not represent every mixed-race person. 

C: Yes, absolutely, I agree with that.

K: And so, that’s what I’m saying. So, for somebody – you’re defending someone who said, “I didn’t know that Japanese people could be attractive” if they’re saying, “I was never attracted to Japanese people, I’m like eww gross.” That’s racist.

C: Absolutely. But I’m saying, “I didn’t know Japanese people could be attractive” could be just a product of racism of the systemic part rather than a personal thing, like “uh-huh” because what I hear in that is “I am finding Japanese people attractive.” Now, when they start separating it in between Japanese and Japanese American, then I think what they’re doing is being like… “I really love the stereotype” because then I think they’re saying that Japanese people in Japan are monolithic. Like…

K: And so, that goes to fetishization of race.

C: Right. Exactly. 

K: And, if you’re fetishizing a race, you are racist. So, I have been fetishized, and it is offensive and hurtful and painful. 

C: Yeah.

K: And a product of racism. So, I understand if a lot of Musick Notes tune out and don’t want to listen to us anymore because they’re like “holy crap, Kisstopher thinks I’m a racist.” And… you know, what you can do instead is do the work to not have this bias. Do the work to not have this racist though. And do the work to evolve. Because I do think that being a racist – and I am not proud of this fact, in my history I was racist in the past because of things that had happened to me. And I did the work to not be racist.

C: Mhm.

K: And it’s painful work. Painful, shitty, shitty work to not be racist. Not proud of that fact either. But I really evolved. And, for me, I’m much happier not being racist. And I tell our son all the time “if” – that when he was growing up, some of the things I said was racist and ignorant, and he’s like “I know.” And I said “anytime” for me, the rule is anytime I know I’m – I beat this horse to death – and sorry if you’re a PETA-lover because PETA people are against phrase like “don’t beat the dead horse.” 

C: Oh, yeah. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. The organization.

K: Yeah. And they’re against Pokémon and stuff. Which, that trips me out. So, I play Pokémon. 

C: Yup.

K: (laughs)

C: Let the hate commence.

K: I said that with so much defiance in my voice and face.

C: I will not be shamed or silenced. 

K: I will not. I’ve got to catch them all. What? (laughs) My favorite version is X and Y. Why? Because there’s the Battle Maison, and I can go in there and raise my Pokémon right.

C: Yup. That you can do.

K: (laughs) Yup, and I did Oras. I’m still playing Omega Ruby and 

C: Alpha Sapphire.

K: Yeah. Is it?

C: Yes.

K: Alpha Sapphire?

C: Yes.

K: And Omega Ruby?

C: Yes. Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, and Omega is the last letter of the Greed alphabet. 

K: Look at you, fancy pants, with your PHD and knowing the Greek alphabet.

C: Yeah. I had to learn the Greed alphabet during my undergraduate, actually. 

K: Really?

C: Yeah.

K: For which class?

C: For all the classes.

K: What are you talking about?

C: I’m talking about in mathematics, they just start using Greek letters, and eventually you just say, “hang on, hang on, I’m just going to learn the whole alphabet.”

K: (laughs) So, something strange that happens in Japan… this is a strange use of it – is that they put alpha on things. “I’m going to give you this amount of money, plus alpha.” What’s alpha? What is alpha? (laughs) Because it wasn’t just your former boss. It’s also happened in like – so, in my job, I’m in on negotiation, and they will say, as part of the divorce negotiation and mediation, “well this is plus alpha.” And I never know what’s alpha? And I don’t want to get all up in people’s financial business, so I’m like alpha. I’ll just go with the fact they’re saying alpha.

C: So, alpha is – in the context of Japanese business – is an amount that becomes due under certain conditions. And I think it comes

K: Sorry for that slurp.

C: I think it comes from epsilon. So, in mathematics, we often say, “let epsilon be greater than zero” and then we add epsilon. By which we mean it’s just a little bit bigger, or maybe a lot bigger, but this one number is guaranteed to be bigger than some other number. Japanese business, they say alpha, for whatever reason. If they said beta, beta is a thing in finance. Gamma. Like… a lot of the other Greek letters are used financially.

K: I’m sorry that my facial expression is shutting you down. I thought I was looking interested.

C: No, I’m just trying to think of how to explain it without being too complicated. Alpha 

K: (laughs) I feel like “too late.”

C: Yeah. So, in Japanese business terminology, alpha is an additional amount, and the size of the amount depends on factors that are not known at the time of the negotiation. 

K: Okay. So… for me, my sexual attraction now, and my sexuality, I feel is Chad-centric. Because I don’t – I can look at people and think that they’re pretty or not pretty or sexually attractive or not sexually attractive, but when I factor in Kisstopher – like are they sexually attractive to me, I don’t actually feel sexual attraction for other people. And that’s something I never thought would happen to me in my lifetime. Where I wouldn’t be sexually attracted, or I wouldn’t have to work really hard to maintain our monogamy. 

C: Mhm.

K: And, so, I told you that it would be a work in progress in terms of my attraction. That I might always be attracted to other people. And then we put a lot of rules in place to make sure that I never acted o that attraction. And now we don’t have as many rules – well, I guess they’re still in place, but they don’t matter.

C: Well, I think the rule like “I’m never going to go six days without eating.” Right.

K: No, we never had that, we had like “if I found somebody sexually attractive, I never spend any time alone with them, and I didn’t become their friend.”

C: Yeah. What I’m saying on rules is sometimes you never get close enough to the rule to even remember that it’s there.

K: Yeah. And, so, for me, I just feel really attracted to you. And really happy with our monogamy.

C: I’m very happy with you too. It’s what I always wanted.

K: Yeah?

C: Yea. It’s a good present.

K: (laughs and hiccups) That’s weird. I was laughing, and then I hiccupped at the same time. I’ve never done that before. That was a trip. That felt so weird because it just like cut the laugh off, just… gone.

C: Because the only thing funnier than what I just said – because that’s just the second level of laugh – the first level of laugh is silent. Like, when you don’t hear Kisstopher laughing, that’s when she’s laughing the hardest.

K: Ohh. Poor you. (laughs)

C: I know, right? Poor everyone that they can’t hear it.

K: So, yeah. Hit us up. What do you think? I think this is one of our more controversial episodes. But listen to our take two to get my thoughts on that. And, so, you have to join our Patreon and give us ten bucks. (laughs)

C: Yeah.

K: We hope that we didn’t turn too many people off, and that you’ll listen to us next week and hang in – hang tough, Musick Notes, hang tough. So, talk to you next week.

C: Bye.

K: Bye.