Stress management, especially around academic work, differences between expectations of PhD students in Japan and the US, and the culture of academia and stress.

Transcript

K: So lately I’ve been thinking about stress management and my PhD and how bad I suck at it.

C: What could have brought that on?

K: (laughs) So, every round of feedback, I just get so stressed out. As soon as I turn it in for review by anybody, it sends me through the roof. And I think that.. I don’t know what it actually – I don’t know what to think. I really, I need to do something to get a handle on it.  It’s just – it can’t go on this way. I can’t do another couple years this way. It’s not tenable. 

C: Well, I think it’s – it’s always difficult to be judged if you care about the opinion of the person judging you.

K: Yes.

C: And you have to care about the opinion. And not only do you have to care about the opinion, you have to do something about it.

K: Yes. Maybe that’s part of why I’m so stressed out because I super respect my chair. And I super, super like them.

C: Yeah.

K: I don’t really know my co-chair, but we’ve talked about it on other episodes where – at least, I think we have. Because I courted my chair before they agreed to be my chair for two years.

C: Right.

K: And so that created a lot of intimacy between the two of us because I was writing them once every – once or twice every two or three months, and there were some months where I was writing them once a month. And I think when I’m discussing my relationship with my chair, I don’t discuss above and beyond they went for me because under the rules of the university – 1; I’m not in- so, my PhD is in general psychology. And my chair is the head of all of psychology but also is from the school of social psychology.

C: Right.

K: So just on the strength that they’re from the school of social psychology, they had the right to turn me down.

C: Yes.

K: There was no expectation that they would take me. So that was one thing that made me feel super honored. The fact that they’re the head of the psychology department means that they don’t have to mentor anyone, and they’re super, super selective. I think they only ever have three at a time. And so… for me to be able to get them, I had to know the month – to the month when I was going to start the formal – so, at my school, there’s pre-courses that you have to take, then there’s the formal dissertation course shell that you have to go in because I’m doing it distance learning. So, I was sending them running updates of when I would be entering the dissertation course shell. So I had to do that, and they told me – and then this is so kooky, and it sounds so romantic. We met in Paris. (laughs)

C: Yes, so you’ve met them in person. 

K: Yeah. So, we went to – for my school, we had to do residencies, and residencies are basically intensive courses – it’s a conference basically. And I have to attend four conferences to get my PhD. And conference one, residency one, is where I met my chair. And out of everybody there, my chair was the only person I felt could even come close to possibly being my person to be my chair. And then, by fluke, by accident, I had signed up for an advising session with them. And that just felt like kismet to me. Like it was destiny, like it was meant to be. And I asked them during the thing, and I made up my topic on the fly – because they were like “what’s your topic?” Because I’m like “would you be my chair” – “what’s your topic” I made it up on the fly. And they – we stepped outside, and we talked about it. And they were like “okay, here’s an article for you to read, let’s talk about it tomorrow.” And I read the article, we talked about it tomorrow, and they said, “I will agree to consider you.”

C: Mhm.

K: What was your getting – so I’m doing mine in a completely Western style, and I’m doing it online. What was it like for you getting your chair in Japan?

C: I had to find a person to agree to sponsor my research, so I looked at the list of professors at Nagoya University, where I went, and picked one who spoke English because although I do speak Japanese, I am not confident – I was not at the time confident in my ability to talk math in Japanese. Now, my math Japanese is probably better than my general spoken Japanese.

K: Yeah. I think so.

C: And picked somebody whose area of research was close to what I thought I wanted to do. And then I had to go talk to them, discuss my thing, get them to agree to sponsor me, and then I had oral qualifying exams before I could be admitted to the school.

K: What do you mean “oral qualifying exam”?

C: So most programs in math, and some other fields – like if I had gone to Berkeley for my PhD, I would have taken qualifying exams. And once I had taken those qualifying exams – quals. Then I would have been in the dissertation phase. So most people take classes to learn the material to pass the quals.

K: Mmm. And Walden does it a little bit differently in that you just do two years of classes, and each of those classes are their own qualifying – they have their own qualifier in it in terms of the final assignment in the class.

C: Right. In Nagoya University, you have to have a master’s to even apply to the PhD program, and you do oral quals right then. In my qualifying exam, I was asked about algebraic topology, questions about continuous defamation, but also like “okay, so you said that you studied this, what textbook did you use?” Like “whose textbook did you use?” So knowing that I used Alan Hatcher’s online textbook. And blah blah blah. And it was “well, how much do you know about this? Okay, here are some questions about it.” So it wasn’t – I mean it was quite similar to quals in other places in that a variety of topics were covered, and you don’t have to pass every topic, but you have to pass a certain number of topics, and there’s a core that you have to pass. So I had to demonstrate that I knew algebra, that I knew analysis, that kind of thing. 

K: So, for me, I was able to get into the program because I had earned my master’s from Walden.

C: Right.

K: And so I didn’t have to do a lot of stuff that other students have to get in because they were just able to look at my

C: Perfect record.

K: Yeah. And so, you always talk about that, and I’m like ugh, always eyeroll when you say that. Like hardcore eyeroll.

C: Yes you do.

K: So, when I got in, I knew right away that I needed to find a chair because I have a lot of issues with – anybody who follows us on twitter knows I’ve got issues for days. And one of the things that I don’t like – like, I pathologically don’t like – is talking on the phone. And so the major selling point of my chair is that they said, “you will not have to do a weekly phone call.” Every other person said they would require all of their students to do a weekly phone call, even if you have nothing to say.

C: Even if you’re hard of hearing.

K: Yeah, so I’m hard of hearing and dyslexic, and the way – I’ve talked about this a little bit before, the way my dyslexia impacts me is mostly the way I process speech. So that’s written and spoken word. So… expressive and received – so how I speak, it’s really hard for me to just randomly speak on a topic I’m unprepared to speak on. And sound coherent. And it’s really hard for me to take in new knowledge that I’m not expecting if it’s just spoken word.

C: Right.

K: And so with written word, I have a system for written word. But they didn’t teach me how to have a system word for spoken word, so phone calls are really hard for me.

C: They’re hard for me, too. I don’t like them. I’ve never liked phone calls, so I’m completely sympathetic when you’re like “I need to find a chair who doesn’t require phone calls.” I’m like “of course you do. Why wouldn’t you want that?”

K: Yeah. And I had just come off a course – no, that was at the third residency that I had just come off a course that the teacher required me to call them once a week. 

C: Yes.

K: That teacher was horrible. I’m not going to say their name, but they were condescending to me. They condescended to me about what it means to be a black woman.

C: Wow okay.

K: Yeah. And they were like – they were explaining to me what my lived experience was.

C: So, not during my PhD, but doing my master’s, I took a course in partial differential equations from a professor who required, but didn’t say that he required, everybody to beg his help if you wanted to get a good score. 

K: Everybody to beg his help?

C: Yeah. And he had written the textbook for his class. Anybody who has encountered him will know who I’m talking about, but he had written the textbook for his class, and the final chapter of his textbook was the proof that god exists. 

K: Okay.

C: Yeah.

K: I’m making confused, puzzled face. Like, stunned.

C: So, I was getting B’s, B’s, B’s on the assignments, and I wrote to him and said, “what the heck am I doing wrong?” Because I thought I understood the math. And after I wrote that, I started getting A’s. Any week that I wrote to him, I got an A on my assignment, any week that I didn’t I got a B on my assignment. 

K: Mmm. That’s ugly. So, for me, it was when… I was talking about being – so, they said “hey we have to talk” because they didn’t understand why I wasn’t just saying black or African American. 

C: Mhm.

K: And I was explaining that the group that I’m speaking about – I’m speaking about women of color from the African

C: I remember that, yeah.

K: The African diaspora.

C: And also Africans.

K: And also Africa. So, she was like “but can’t you then just say African women and women of African descent?” And I said “no, because a lot of my girls are Caribbean, and they feel like – they get that they’re, that you know, they’re the descendants of slaves, but they view themselves as Caribbean. ‘We’re from the African diaspora, but we are Caribbean.’ And you can say Afro-Caribbean if you feel the need to add the ‘Afro’, but it seems redundant to them.” And she was explaining to me how to talk about these women that I personally knew.

C: Right.

K: and explaining to me how to speak about myself. And I was just like.. okay. And she was condescending to me, and then in the phone call she said, “can I ask you a question?” And I said “sure.” “I was just wondering… how old are you, sweetheart?” 

C: (laughs)

K: I was like, at the time I was 49, I was like “49.” “Oh, okay.” And then her whole tone changed. 

C: Right.

K: I was like “okay, so you thought I I’m like a 20-something” they were still older than me, they thought I was really young. And they thought I was really insecure. I wasn’t. I was being polite.

C: Mhm.

K: And, for me, I find that that type of condescension – when someone who views themselves as being liberal and progressive and an ally – and we talked about this in allyship – without doing the first part of ally. And that is boop, zip it and listen to the lived experience of those that you wish to support. So I knew for certain that I didn’t want that person as my chair. And I was super, super happy that before residency 3 – so it’s just, this is just a snowball of gratitude that happens with my chair, so I’m going to back up a little bit. So in between 1 and 2, my chair – outside of the 900 course shell

C: 9000.

K: 9000. 

C: Which is the course designation for doing your dissertation.

K: Yeah. So outside of the 9000 course shell, they don’t have to do anything. But she looked at my – what’s the thing I’m supposed to write before my prospectus?

C: Premise.

K: Yeah. My premise was a mess. And she looked at it, and she was like “huh, interesting.” Which I thought was really polite, looking back at it I’m like “mmm, that thing was horrible.”

C: (laughs)

K: “Why don’t we try writing the prospectus from this because I’m not sure where you’re going. Why don’t we just try that?” And then she – every two months, she gave me notes on my prospectus. So, for two years, two and a half years, she gave me notes on my prospectus. And it took me two and a half years to develop my prospectus because I came into my PhD having no idea what I wanted to study. I did not have a problem. I just knew – well my problem was I didn’t have a PhD.

C: Right. That’s a big problem for some people.

K: Yeah. So that was my problem going in. I was like “I don’t have a PhD. What? That’s my problem.”

C: I mean, you saw me go through the process, and you were like “sign me up.” 

K: (laughs) 

C: “That looks fun.”

K: So I was super, super grateful to have them accept saying – I sent a formal invitation right before I went to ressy 3 – that’s residency 3, ressy 3 – and they formally accepted. And that was after two years of courting. And then at ressy 3, the person who had been condescending to me was practically following me around begging me to ask them to be my chair.

C: Mhm. And this was when we went to Spain, so if people follow us on Instagram, they’ll see when we went to Spain. 

K: Yeah. And if not, just go follow our Instagram. (laughs)

C: Or ignore it, just know we went to Spain sometime in the past.

K: Yes. (laughs) So, when I was there, every time I said who my chair was, there was like hushed and hallowed respect. Like, “wow you must be amazing. Because they are so selective.” 

C: So you were like flashing a cross at a bunch of vampires?

K: Yes, no, not at all.

C: Okay.

K: I was like walking around with the pope’s ring.

C: Oh okay, gotcha. 

K: Yeah, if you’re going to do like a religious thing.

C: Yeah.

K: So it was – so I always knew, I had read my chair’s research – I always knew them to be an amazing person, I had had an amazing experience with them writing back and forth. I really enjoyed the way they gave feedback; I really enjoyed the way they communicated. I just enjoyed everything. 

C: Mhm.

K: And then ow that I’m in the place where it matters, when they set goals for me, I just don’t want to disappoint them.

C: Yeah. And it mattered before. I think that that’s something that maybe is difficult to catch is that even when you were only writing to them every couple of months, it still mattered. But I think that what happens – what happened with my chair was that if he asked me for something, then I felt like I had to deliver it in a certain timeframe. And sometimes that was explicit, sometimes it was like “here’s a paper, let’s meet at lunch and talk about this paper. Read it, let’s talk about it, I want you to explain it to me.” And I think that when you get feedback, what I’ve seen is that you don’t get anxious until you know when you’re supposed to be receiving the feedback. So it’s not sending the work off for feedback.

K: Mmm.

C: Because you do your best work. 

K: Yeah.

C: You say “this is the best I can do without feedback, so I’m going to send it off. I’m going to get some feedback, make sure I’m headed in the right direction, make sure I’ve done things properly.” And you’re relaxed.

K: And I’m actually thirsty for the feedback because I have done everything. I have no more ideas. No more creativity. I know it’s not done. I know I need to do more, but what is the more?

C: Right. So you’re like “I’m awesome. Yeah. I rock. I’ve sent it off.” And then you get the response email that says

K: I listen to Be’s in the Trap every time (laughs) I turn it in because I can spit that rap.

C: Yes. You do. 

K: Yup. I could – no, I could do the whole rap. And I’m good at it.

C: Yup.

K: And it makes me feel like a superhero.

C: Like Hulk Hogan.

K: Yup.

C: Yeah, so… it’s really good. 

K: Yup.

C: You guys should see her. But we’re not going to film it.

K: No, we’re not. And just all hail the queen Nicky. That’s awesome. Love Nicky. 

C: Yeah.

K: “Yo, Nicky, Nicky, Nicky.” (laughs) That’s it. That’s it.

C: Okay.

(laughter)

K: That’s from the song.

C: Because if you’re Two Chainz, that would make me Nicky, and I’m not down for that.

K: Yeah. No, I do like every

C: I know you do all the parts.

K: Yeah. So, 

C: So what I see is that once you get the response that says “great, this is when I’ll have it back to you by. This is when I’ll give you feedback by” then you begin the waiting game because you know that once you get it back, you have to act on it. And you don’t know if it’s going to be a lot or a little. 

K: Yeah.

C: So it kind of puts your schedule in limbo.

K: It’s almost always a little. From my chair it’s almost always a little. From my co-chair, I know it’s almost always going to be extensive.

C: Yeah. 

K: and detailed. 

C: Yeah. But I – the possibility that it might be a lot I think is very nerve-wracking. Because 

K: For me, it’s not knowing what day it’s going to come.

C: Right. Because you have a very tightly planned life. You have to fit in everything that you do.

K: I do. And so, for me – and I also have a quirk that I’m not proud of. Disappointing me, like people who disappoint me, it’s really hard for me to have a relationship with them. If anyone’s every disappointed me. And I hold a grudge, and I don’t forgive.

C: Yeah.

K: So I’m working on these things, and I had major breakthroughs on the forgiveness things. I’ve forgiven you for some major things recently, and that makes me feel really proud. And I’ve forgiven our son for some major things, and that make some feel really proud. But beyond you and our son, I’m struggling a little bit in the area of forgiveness. And I really want to get better at it because I don’t think people are setting out to… disappoint me. 

C: Right.

K: and I don’t think people are setting out to hurt me or make me angry. So full disclosure, I have an anger management issue. I have had an anger management issue my whole life. And I view anger management as the AA version of if you’re an addict, you’re always an addict. For me, if I’m not – if I don’t do anger management work each and every day, there is the risk that I will lose my temper in a way that is emotionally abusive. And when I was younger, and I think we’ve talked about this before, I got in fights all the time.

C: Yeah, we have talked about that before.

K: And I’m not proud of that. I’m not proud that I beat people up. And I’ve been beaten up. I don’t win every fight. I’m not proud of myself that I was getting into physical altercations on a regular basis. And I’m happy that I got that under control before we met. 

C: Yeah.

K: I don’t think I got into a physical altercation after you and I met.

C: No.

K: So interestingly enough (throat clearing) Sorry for the throat clearing. Interestingly enough, the last physical altercation I got into was before Rasta was born. And then after Rasta, there was only one physical altercation I almost got into.

C: Mhm.

K: Someone was trying me, and they didn’t – they thought I wouldn’t be violent anymore, and I was like “really? We could throw down. I don’t care.”

C: Okay.

K: And so I was

C: They were trying your beauty, but they forgot how much of it you got.

K: Exactly. So I’m not proud of these things, and I – I, like kids don’t fight. Stay in school. Don’t do drugs. Don’t smoke cigarettes.

C: (laughs)

K: Don’t do as I did. And I’ve done a lot of great work to overcome it, and I don’t name call anymore. Like, that’s how good my anger management is. I don’t name call. I don’t raise my voice. I don’t break things. I don’t do any of that, and the reason why I have an anger management issue is that I was abused as a child. And my mother would throw dishes at me and beat the crap out of me on a regular basis. And then I was in the foster system and I was abused – go read my threads if you want to know all about that because that’s a different cast. So, I still have this one piece that is connected to my anger management, and it’s this belief that if people disappoint me that they deserve either abuse or to be exiled. And that’s how my mother behaved. If I disappointed, I deserved to be abused or exiled.

C: And you can’t do either one to your advisor.

K: No, I cannot. It’s not appropriate. So, what’s your thing? Like, do you think that’s it? So not your thing. What’s your vantage point? Do you think that’s it? That I’m like stuck in that “don’t disappoint me” place?

C: I think you’re stuck in the reverse place, actually, that you don’t want to disappoint. I do think that you’re stuck in, like, you don’t want to disappoint, but if you disappoint, then it is also partially their fault for not giving you the right feedback, so that you could avoid disappointing them.

K: Mmm. No. Because if my promise didn’t disappoint them, it is impossible for me to disappoint them. 

C: But they were clear that your premise had disappointed them. They were clear that your premise wasn’t measuring up.

K: No, they weren’t. They were just like “let’s just move on.” 

C: Oh okay. I thought it was clear that your premise wasn’t what they were looking for, and they felt like it wasn’t such a necessary step. That you needed to give that right before moving on.

K: I felt like that they just didn’t understand it – that it was confusing.

C: Yes.

K: Now, looking back, hindsight’s 20/20. I get that they were like “girl, this is busted. Let’s just work on a different document because this is busted. But you know how to write.”

C: Right. Because the premise is informal. It’s not a formal step. It’s supposed to be like

K: Yeah, the prospectus is the formal step.

C: It’s basically supposed to entice people to want to be your chair.

K: Yeah.

C: And she already wanted to be your chair, so I think at that point it was like… “let’s move on.”

K: Yeah. Because at the premise point, she liked my communication style, she liked the frequency of my communication, the way that I communicate, and she liked – so the premise, the reason she had me write the premise was that she has a thing. And I was so happy – so, with the terminal comma, so I’m going to grammar geek a little bit here. So, when you write a series of things, you have potatoes, mushrooms, celery, and carrots. You can either put a comma before the last and or not. And that is the terminal comma. And I had listened to this podcast that they have at Walden called the Writecast, and my chair was on it. And she said, “if you do not include the terminal comma before and, and gave several instructions, you need to take a writing class from the writing center.” If you don’t know that one thing. And it’s something that I do interchangeably, it depends on my mod, and it depends on how I want it to be read. And so now I always include it.

C: So if you guys could see us, you’d see me putting my editor hat on.

K: (laughs)

C: To say the proper name for that is the serial comma, or the Oxford comma. They mean the same thing.

K: Yes. 

C: And that it is a matter of style whether you use it or not.

K: Yes.

C: You should be consistent in this use, except when consistency would create ambiguity. But the APA standards – the American Psychological Association – writing style is to use the serial comma. So if you’re not using the serial comma, then you’re not writing in APA style.

K: Yes.

C: APA style is used for a lot of fields, but it’s definitely used for psychology at American universities.

K: Yes it is. And so then, I went through and listened to – so I’ve done a lot, a lot of research on my chair. And I’ve listened to every opportunity there was to listen to a recording of my chair, I listened to it. To read my chair’s writing, I read it. I read – I didn’t read all of my chair’s research, but I’ve read three papers that were written by my chair. So I’ve gotten to know my chair as an academic before well. 

C: Right.

K: And I really respect them. I respect their mind. And I respect their ability. And.. so, for me… I want the respect, but I feel like I already have it.

C: Yes.

K: And I already have their approval. And I know that heir feedback is only designed to make me better. To elevate my writing. 

C: Yeah, to elevate your writing.

K: And to elevate my critical thinking. 

C: Yeah.

K: And – so I don’t know why it gives me anxiety because it’s never mean, it’s never harsh, it’s never ben “you disappoint me” so I feel like this is just all me, it’s just all in my head.

C: To me, it looks like a scheduling issue because I see you get the same kind of anxiety when you’re expecting to hear back on something else non-academic by a certain time, and then you know that you have to act on the information that you receive within a certain timeframe.

KL: Mmm. Yeah. I do that a lot with client emails. If I’m expecting a client to email a certain day and time, I want it to be on time. This is a punctuality thing.

C: Yes.

K: Wow. Mind blown.

C: Both your won punctuality and the other person’s punctuality.

K: Mm. 

C: Because if you get feedback early, then you feel like – and I’ve seen you do this, and you can deny it, but I’ve seen you do it – like that moves up your deadline for response. 

K: No, it totally does and pisses me off. Like, if I had – so for example, if I were, and this isn’t the case, I’m just using an example from when we were on vacation. Because that’s the most poignant for me, and that’s one of the times that makes me the saddest. Is we were on vacation a while back, and we had scheduled two days of just sitting in the hotel room and geeking out on my PhD. 

C: You were geeking out on y our PhD, I was working on my own projects. 

K: Yeah. (laughs) But I feel like you were geeking out, too, because – you guys don’t know, but Chad is the best husband ever. When I’m working on my prospectus, I say we because he sits where he is in my eyeline so that I can look up and see him while I’m working because it makes me feel more confident.

C: Because you’re precious.

K: Yes. And when you look at me, I feel invincible.

C: Yes. 

K: and I think it’s because – they can’t see it, but every time you look at me, there’s so much love in your eyes. It’s like undeniable that you think I’m beautiful, that you think I’m smart, that you think I’m amazing. So just you looking at me it gives me the revness. I get super revved up and happy.

C: I do think all those things. 

K: Yeah. And it’s apparent in your gaze. So that’s why I say we.

C: Okay.

K: (laughs) So

C: Yeah, so we were geeking out on your PhD, and we were also playing games the whole time.

K: Yes.

C: And we were reading books. 

K: Yes. We were. And it was the day before I was scheduled to get feedback, and it was the worst day of the trip. And I felt disappointed in myself that I didn’t have better emotional regulation and then did the good work to not be disappointed. But I feel like – this is another thing that I do that is kind of weird, but I feel like you experience all of my emotions with me. How was that day for you?

C: It was tough because you’re vocal about your emotions. So I don’t feel your emotions, but I do… get told your emotions. And I witness your emotions. And I want to help you through negative emotions, and I want to enjoy positive emotions with you. So, I mean it’s a tough time when I see you so filled with anxiety, and I don’t know how to resolve it because it’s related to a specific thing.

K: Yeah. And when you said scheduling, that hit the nail on the head for me.

C: Yeah.

K: Because I had a day earmarked for one thing, and if I got early feedback, I felt like it was going to change my earmark.

C: Right.

K: And I think I need to get better about that and stand in my own – I’m going to like, for all my clients listening to this, yeah this is me practicing what I preach and telling myself “Kisstopher, stand in your excellence. You are awesome. No one is going to die if you stick to your plan, and your plan has already been agreed to by your chair

C: In writing.

K: Because you have to send it in writing” yeah. Because you have to turn it in writing. So at the beginning of every term, I have to turn in my term plan. And if I don’t do everything on that term plan, then I can get an unsatisfactory. And that can put me on academic probation if I get two of those. So the highest grade you can get a U or an S.

C: Yeah, that’s it. 

K: Yeah, you can’t get anything else. Pass no pass class. So, yes, it was agreed upon in writing, and yeah. Okay. Yeah. I just need to stick to my plan.

C: Mhm.

K: I need to honor myself and honor my plan and set good boundaries and communicate. Great. I will have time to get started on it on this day. 

C: Right. And I think scheduling like that is really important tot both of us. You’ve scheduled like that since we met, and I’ve learned to schedule like that because it helps a lot with my memory issues, and then when I was editing full-time, it was really helpful because I didn’t miss any deadlines because I could plan out. Like, have checkpoints to where if I’m not at this point by this time, then I’m behind and I need to work harder. But if I am, then I’m on pace. And it kept me from pushing myself to burnout.

K: Mmm. 

C: And I think that’s what your schedule can do too if not push yourself to burnout. 

K: Absolutely. 

C: Because you know it’s one of the cases where it’s a lot easier for your chair to give you feedback than for you to apply it.

K: Mm. I think sometimes they can be equally challenging. 

C: I think sometimes, but I think in general if you spend, like, two days researching. It doesn’t take two days to read your – the summary of your research – and respond. 

K: Mhm.

C: Now, your chair has a lot of other responsibilities: teaching classes, dealing with administrative stuff because they’re the head, you know, other students that they have, other PhD students. 

K: Yeah.

C: But it doesn’t take them the same amount of time to read your research that it took you to do it. And that’s the asymmetry that exists for every kind of research.

K: Mmm. 

C: You know, I read a math paper that takes me two days because it’s complicated. It might’ve taken months for the person to write it.

K: So, then, I think that when I get the response back of “I’ll have it to you by this date” if I say “great, I’ll start working on it on this date” and start that communication cycle that that will help. Once I lean into that and see that that’s actually okay and start trusting that that’s actually okay. That maybe, just maybe, I will feel 

C: Maybe. Because it’s not like you don’t have other things to do. Because even while you’re waiting for feedback, you don’t typically get feedback on the entire document at once. You’re getting feedback on sections. You’ve got research to do, you’ve got different things that you’re working on that allow you to make progress. And you’re not doing this as your only thing. You’ve got work. You’ve got family. You’ve got all kinds of other stuff.

K: Yeah. And I think t here’s a lot of stuff that I’ve been wanting to do and meaning to do that I didn’t get to, so I think today I’m going to – from after having this beautiful insight, thank you for everyone for attending my therapy session. My self-therapy session.

C: (laughs) 

K: On how to mange my anxiety. I think it’s kind of helpful – I wish people with anxiety, when they found ways to manage a certain aspect of their anxiety would be more vocal and share about it. And for me, I have this belief that if you name it you can tame it.

C: Yeah.

K: And so for me, naming it as “okay, this isn’t feedback anxiety, this is scheduling anxiety” – okay, right on. So now I need to make a schedule.

C: right. And like any good advice, it rhymes. 

K: Like what?

C: Any good piece of advice, it rhymes.

K: What are you talking about?

C: If you name it, you can tame it. 

K: You know I’m very Doctor Seuss.

C: You are. 

K: I like to rhyme and make jingles all the time.

C: Right? But he wasn’t just Magister Seuss. He didn’t just have a master’s; he had a doctorate.

K: (laughs) High five on that. That was amazing. That was a good one. So, I think today, I need to spend some time actually figuring out my schedule. And figuring out my timeline. Because here’s the other thing: I need lost and hidden time. I cannot – I struggle to even tell you the truth of what I’m doing. There have ben days that I have worked six hours, like intensive six hours, but told you “I’ve just been doing nothing but watching YouTube and laying in bed all day” because I don’t want it known that I was working that day.

C: Yeah. It’s noon. You’ve ben up since six am working.

K: Yeah. And I think the reason that I need hidden time is because – well, I don’t think my chair listens to our podcast, but it’s about my disability. And I don’t always want to have to let people know I’m sick. And there are days when I’m sick, and I just can’t. I’m too sick.

C: Yes.

K: And with the HcP, the hereditary coproporphyria, it’s impossible to think. 

C: Right.

K: It takes away the ability to think. And the Lupus makes it so painful I can’t think.

C: right.

K: So when I’m in double flare, it’s a nightmare.

C: You’re tired, but you’re in too much pain to sleep, and

K: Yeah.

C: Yeah.

K: So what was your biggest obstacle with your anxiety when you’re doing your PhD?

C: I think just for me, it was kind of the internalized belief that I wasn’t going to be able to do it. So my program was a lot less structured than yours had been before you started your dissertation because it was you went, you found a chair, prospective chair, you did oral qualifiers, and then it was bang, you’re doing your dissertation. Take classes if you need them, don’t if you don’t. So some of my contemporaries – some of my cohort – took a lot of classes because they wanted to learn about different things. And some of us didn’t take any classes. I took Japanese, but I didn’t take any math classes.

K: Did you take Japanese classes?

C: I did take Japanese classes, yes.

K: Huh. I thought that you were just attending random seminars. That makes way more sense than what I thought you were doing. I thought you were just going – because you did sometimes sit in math seminars

C: Yeah, absolutely. 

K: And you went to dinners and lunches and conferences.

C: Yeah, so there were weekly workshops, so I’d go to the workshops – which wasn’t required but it was recommended that you go to some. Sometimes they were in Japanese, sometimes they were in English. 

K: So you had like weekly workshops, plus what was that café you went to? Café Laurent?

C: Hmm?

K: Was it Café Laurent?

C: No. It was the… Hilbert Café. 

K: Okay.

C: Named after Doctor David Hilbert, the mathematician. 

K: What were those café things called that you would go to. Those weren’t the weekly meetings you were talking about were they?

C: No, that was the Hilbert Café. That was during lunch time at the university, you could go, and professors were there, and you could ask questions if you were having trouble with particular things. So there would be usually three or four professors there that you could go ask them. So that was if I had a question about something outside of my specialty because there were – there was a knot theorist there, so sometimes I would go and speak with her about knot theory.

K: Yeah.

C: But also I would go

K: Why wasn’t the knot theorist your chair because your Japanese level?

C: Yes. Correct. 

K: Oh okay.

C: Yeah, that was the whole thing of it. But some people who were taking classes, especially master’s students because master’s students had to take classed, so they would go and get homework help or whatever rather than just relying on office hours for the professors.

K: Mhm.

C: And then there were conferences that were held there. And there were dinners after the conferences. So, in Japan, it’s usual if you have a speaker to go out to dinner with the speaker after. And everybody contributes enough to pay for the speaker and then pays for their own dinner.

K: Yes. So I thought that you were just like hanging out. So that’s why your Japanese was so impressive to me. I didn’t know you were taking classes.

C: Yeah. I took classes. 

K: Your Japanese is still impressive, but when I was saying there’s no way I could learn it the way you learned it

C: Oh okay, yeah.

K: That’s what I meant. Not like if I went to a formal class. So no wonder you were like “no babe don’t be so hard on yourself.” Like there’s no way I could do it. Like I feel people who learn a foreign language from watching t.v. – I don’t get it. 

C: Yeah, no, that

K: I’ve tried watching the home dramas, and I’m like “what?”

C: I didn’t realize you didn’t know that. That’s

K: Yeah, I didn’t know that.

C: It’s been years now, this was what, six, seven years ago.

K: Yes.

C: Yeah. So I took Japanese classes.

K: So I’m still earning about my bae after all these years.

C: Yeah. And I was also a teaching assistant at the writing center.

K: Yeah, I knew about that. But that was in English, wasn’t it?

C: Yeah, that was in English. So, I had an on-campus job. And took classes, just not math classes.

K: Because I took Japanese classes through the family-extension program, which I thought was super awesome.

C: Yeah. And those were held at the dorms that most foreign students lived at. 

K: Yeah. So that’s so weird. Like, I just have no – like, what?

C: (laughs)

K: Mind blown. So, I think, when I’m further down the road on my PhD, we’ll probably do another PhD cast. So, you know, pay attention to the titles if you’re sick of hearing about my PhD, which I hope you’re not. It’s a major part of my life right now. Join me on my journey. (laughs)

C: And I put a summary of each episode in the episode notes.

K: Yeah. And the transcripts.

C: Yeah. 

K: So, they can search it. But I hope everybody enjoys the PhD conversations.

C: Right?

K: like, this is – and I feel like today wasn’t just about PhD, it’s about how to problem-solve anxiety. From my perspective because I started off with I’m really anxious about this thing. And why is this thing making me anxious? And talking about all the ways and reasons that I know it is not making me anxious.

C: Right.

K: And that was able to reveal the way that it is making me anxious, and then me figuring out okay, I need to spend some time doing this thing so that I can know that I’m never going to be behind because that’s what causes me the anxiety. Is being behind and not being able to work my schedule.

C: Right.

K: Because my schedule is king.

C: Yeah. 

K: And everybody knows, like if you follow me on twitter or if you’re a client or you listen to our cast regularly, you know my schedule is the bane of my existence.

C: yes.

K: So I’m juggling a lot of things, and it can be quite overwhelming. So, I have to get better at it I think. I have to get better about not being anxious about it.

C: I think that’s the key. Because you’re good at it, but you’re still anxious about being good at it.

K: So, thanks for listening to me unpack my anxiety and talk through it and attending this therapy session. This is another reason why Chad is #HusbandGoals. (laughs)

C: Someone like me, just to be clear. I’m taken. 

K: Yes. Very taken. Very off the market. The – I like to call you my husband. I like to use my. And I stick the my hard. You’re mine. All mine. Just for me. All of it.

C: Except in Japanese, my husband would be every husband. 

K: Wow. Okay. I don’t want every husband; I just want my husband.

C: Yeah.

K: So, what do you mean?

C: So, like “mainichi” is every day. 

K: Oh, okay. So… but husband… okay, so you’re saying “mai” 

C: Yeah.

K: Okay.

C: I’m making a bad joke, and you’re not laughing, so like usual.

K: Yeahhh. Yeahh. So sad. 

C: (laughs)

K: Those of you at home feel free to

C: Laugh? Yeah.

K: Give Chad pity laughs. Oooh. Chad’s friend that listens to the cast.

C: I have many friends who listen to the cast.

K: (laughs) Okay, but there is one friend in particular that I think they’ll know who I’m talking to. Let us know. Let Chad know. Did you laugh? At the my joke? I’m curious.

C: Yeah, thanks for that. Thanks for that.

K: (laughs) What do you mean thanks for that?

C: Going to put me on blast.

K: (laughs)

C: I’m going to get like thirty emails. “I think you were talking about me. No, you were not funny.” 

K: (laughs) I know. So now it’ll be interesting to see which of your friends think I’m talking about them.

C: Yes.

K: (laughs) And they’re all going to give you pity laughs, and I think you need them.

(laughter)

C: I think you don’t know what the word pity means.

K: Oh my gosh, I’m being so rude. (laughs)

C: I think you don’t know what the word pity means. I think that’s

K: I’m being so rude and so real right now, it’s horrible. Bad Kisstopher.

C: I think your lack of dictionary knowledge will be a topic for another episode. 

K: My lack of diction knowledge?

C: Dictionary. 

K: Oh, dictionary.

C: Because I don’t think you know what pity means. 

K: Yeah, I do. I think they’re going to feel sorry for you that I didn’t laugh and sad for you. And then they’re going to laugh.

C: They are. Like, “I thought she was a good wife.”

K: (laughs) High five. That was an awesome one. I deserved that. Burn. Oh the burn.

C: (laughs)

K: On that happy note. We’ll thank you for listening and hanging tough with us, and I hope you guys enjoyed this episode and you tune in next week.

C: Bye.

K: Bye.