Chad and Kisstopher talk about racism and how it has affected them throughout their lives. Chad talks about growing up oblivious to his racist environment and how it’s been being faced with racism as an adult. Kisstopher talks about her experiences growing up and living with racism of different varieties.

Content Note

Two slurs for white people are used in this episode when Chad describes his childhood experience, and ethnic/racial slurs generally are discussed (but not used).

Transcript

K: So, lately I’ve been thinking a lot about racism.

C: As one does.

K: Yes. And, for me, racism is something I think about almost every single day.

C: I don’t think about it every single day.

K: You don’t think about it every single day?

C: There are a lot of days that I don’t think that I think about anything. I just sleep the whole day.

K: Okay. (laughs) So, for, just to loop people in that may not have been listening to the whole time, but I don’t think I’ve ever said this on the podcast, what my heritage is. So, I am African American, Native American–specifically Cherokee–Jewish, French, and Dutch. 

C: And I am… English and Norwegian and a lot of lies. 

K: (laughs) So, for me, when I think of racism, there is- there is not a time in my life when racism wasn’t part of my story. Because one of the, the first things that I ever learned about my mother was that she fled Alabama because she had fallen in love with my brother’s father. We had different fathers. I’m the last of 14 kids. My father- so, I’m the last of 14 for my father. And then my mother had a child with someone else. So, I have a total of 14 siblings because I’m actually the last of a total of 15, but it gets really kind of mixed up when I explain it, so I just shorthand it and say I’m the last of 14, even though I’m the last of 15.

C: You have one half-brother from your mother’s side.

K: Yes.

C: And 14 half-siblings from your father’s side.

K: No, I have 13 half-siblings.

C: 13, yes, because you’re the last of 14. Got it.

K: Yes. So, I don’t count me when I say I’m the last of 14 kids.

C: Got it, just like I don’t count me when I say I have 18 siblings of some stripe.

K: Correct. So, we both have the same habit, and it can be very confusing. So if you know me in real life and you’ve asked me “from the same mother and father?” I usually say yes. Because I find that question to be offensive and intrusive and none of your damn business.

C: Okay? Who was boinking? Who was boinking?

K: Yeah, just like, what does it matter? Because I don’t feel any less related to them.

C: No

K: And I feel like that would discount my relationship with them. So, I have the same relationship with all of my siblings, which is that I don’t talk to them.

C: I have that same relationship.

K: (laughs)

C: I have never met several of mine.

K: So, for the first batch of siblings, the main reason you don’t talk to them is because of racism. Circling back, see how we’re doing that. For my siblings, racism isn’t the reason. I just don’t like them. (laughs)

C: Uh-huh.

K: So, for me, the first story that I heard about- that I can remember hearing about my family growing up was that my mother had fallen in love with my brother’s father. And she lived in Alabama, and her father was a Klansman who was very high up in the Klan. And at the time, this was in the 1960s, in Alabama as a white woman, you could not consent to have sex with a black man. So, her father would have killed him if he had known that my mother and him were seeing each other. And they were young and in love, and so they ran away to California.

C: Mhmm.

K: And in California, he fell to drug abuse and addiction, and their relationship was really toxic, so while she was pregnant with my brother, she met my father. Who was a boarder in their house. And those two left together, and then raised my brother for a time and had me. 

C: This sounds like a novel, but I’m already writing them.

K: (laughs) And so, for me, and I was also raised understanding that the reason that my parents weren’t married was because when they met, it was against the law. 

C: Mhm.

K: And so they couldn’t legally be married, even in the state of California. And I was born in 1969, so I was born shortly after Loving. And that’s a really famous court case.

C: Yeah, Loving Vs. Virginia which was 1967, so

K: Yes. So, I learned that while they could have been married after I was born, the reason that they weren’t married was because they wanted me and my brother to be on equal footing in the world. And it was their way of protesting the fact that they wouldn’t have been able to get married. Weird protest, but.

C: Well, we know a lot of couples who got, you know, access to marriage under the Supreme Court decision granting marriage equality in the U.S. who didn’t immediately go out and get married.

K: Yeah.

C: S I don’t think it’s that weird.

K: For me, as a kid, it was weird. Like, I didn’t understand it.

C: Okay, I get why for you as a kid.

K: Yeah, but I was like “okay, right on, you guys were hippies.” But at the time, we were raised nudist and hanging out in communes, and I spent a great part of my childhood in nudist colonies and communities. So, for me, it was just like… “right on, I don’t know” the biggest most confusing thing was “why are you even telling me this?” like “I don’t care that you guys aren’t married, it doesn’t bring any value to my life or take anything of value or anything.”

C: See in my while childhood growing up, it was “we were married in the temple before we ever had sex. And you guys are sealed to us for time and all of eternity. You are born into the covenant.”

K: Wow, that’s heavy.

C: It’s heavy. Yeah.

K: Especially because you don’t like them. (laughs)

C: Right?

K: “What? I’m stuck with you for eternity?” That’s burnt.

C: Well, I’m not anymore because I filed the paperwork and officially left the Mormon church. Now, they go to heaven, and I just go somewhere else.

K: Because they sent a really ominous letter.

C: Oh, yeah, threatening me with eternal consequences?

K: Yes.

C: “Think of the eternal consequences. You’ll be separated from your family forever.” I’m like… “yes, that’s what I want. Thank you.”

K: So what is- and then, for me, the first time somebody… so, wait, I have to back up. So, the next time that I remember encountering racism, I was about 5 years old. I have to back up before that. So, when I was 4 years old, I came home, and I said a racial slur. And I didn’t know what it meant. And my mother was appalled. And so what she decided to do in reaction- so, my mother didn’t do a lot of things right, but this one she did do right. She was like “wait a minute, this is not okay, we don’t tolerate racism in our family. And you are going to experience all of the cultures of all of the children at the school that you go to.” And so we did like, a trip around the world where I experienced different cultures, dressed in traditional garb, because my mother could sew. She made all of these traditional clothes, like she went IN to teach me not to be racist. And styled my hair that way, and we ate that food, and everything. This was like a year-long process. And she just stuck with it because she was determined that her kids would not be racist. And she was like “I am not” so first she beat the crap out of me, let’s be clear. She beat the crap out of me, washed my mouth out with Irish Spring soap, which to me, I’ve had my mouth washed out with a lot of different soaps and Irish Spring is the most painful.

C: Yeah, yeah, like Dove is a totally different experience.

K: Have you ever had your mouth washed out with soap?

C: Absolutely, yes.

K: Okay, yeah, so Dove is a completely different experience.

C: Yeah.

K: Irish Spring is next level. Irish Spring is like wow, you know your mouth is cleansed after that. And it stays with you. And the way that my mother would have us do it, it would stick in between my teeth. So

C: So, do you think it was anti-Irish that she was washing your mouth out with Irish Spring soap?

K: No, and if she would’ve heard you say that, you might get a taste of Irish Spring. So, it wasn’t just like the stick the bar of soap into your mouth kind of thing, it was the grind a toothbrush

C: Yeah.

K: So, we had to use our normal toothbrush.

C: Eww.

K: So it meant like

C: Weeks.

K: Weeks and weeks afterward, you still have to wash your mouth out with soap. So it was just like you really didn’t want the treatment. But to me it was like a really beautiful multicultural moment.

C: Not the beating and not the toothbrushing. But the costumes.

K: Yeah, the costumes and the hair, and she made culture fun for me. And she made differences in culture fun for me. And so, she really taught me that inclusivity is beautiful and fun and makes our life more- it enriches our lives and makes things more fun and more interesting. And then after we did multiculturalism, because my mother was queen of overkill, there was a month of single culturalism. Where all I had was just plain food. Like, I could have plain food with butter on it, and that was it. But little did she know, that was my favorite. And so, I wasn’t punished. 

C: Mmm. So, that sounds like time at Grandma June’s house to me. 

K: Okay.

C: Because my grandma June was from Norway. So, three of my grandparents were immigrants. Both of my grandfathers came from England. My mother’s mother came from Norway. And then my father’s mother claimed various things. Her side of the family had been in the U.S. since before the civil war. And supposedly we had spies for the North and all kinds of

K: But you found out that you were not Irish, and you are not Native American.

C: I’m not Irish, I’m not Native American. Yup. Found out not Irish because my brother tried to emigrate to Ireland, saying “my grandfather was Irish” and actually, no, he was English. 100% English. Just happened to have red hair.

K: Yup.

C: So yeah.

K: So what’s funny is that the family joke is “I’m Irish because I’m redheaded” because “I’m a ginger” turned into belief about actual ancestry.

C: Right. Which turned into a whole thing, but yeah.

K: Your brother was so upset by that. He felt so betrayed.

C: Do you think that your mother doing that taught you that culture is a costume?

K: No. Because she didn’t just do costumes. We did food, we did language, we did customs, we did, like, surface anti-culture. She went in. I cannot stress enough that my mother was the queen of overkill. I’m talking like she would stay up all night sewing things to put around the house. Like, our window coverings, our furniture. Everything in the house changed to match the culture. When she went in, she went IN. She did not half-step anything. 

C: Okay.

K: So, she did not have a talent for language. But we would do like, phrases and stuff. And she would always be convinced that she was going to learn a new language. Never did, bless her heart. But she went in. And, like, it turned into like a whole thing at the school, and it was such a big deal that they ended up doing a multicultural mosaic on the side of the school celebrating all of the children’s cultures of the class that I was in. It was huge. It was a huge thing that started from me just coming home and saying a racial slur. And it changed the school culture, it like- it changed the neighborhood. My one- one phrase from my mouth impacted the entire neighborhood in a positive way.

C: Wow, so that was your start in activism.

K: Yes, it was. And that was also the year that we went around collecting signatures to make domestic violence illegal in California. Because domestic violence was not always a crime in the state of California.

C: Yeah.

K: And we went around collecting signatures, so I’ve been a life-long activist. And activism- my mother was awesome with activism, but horrible, horrible with other things. So, for me…. Racism has always been a part of my life. And I cannot think of a time that it wasn’t deadly serious and where I didn’t know that racism would kill. Because we would- every summer we would drive cross-country from California to Alabama. And in some Southern states, we would drive with a blanket over me and my brother so that no one could see us because at the time that we were driving cross-country, she had remarried and was married to a white man. So it was her and a white man in the car, and when we would drive through certain- when we would drive through towns off of- when we would get off the freeway and drive into town, my mother would say “okay, put the blanket on” and we would just go underneath the blanket, and we would drive that way until we got to the hotel. Then they would back the car into the hotel, and we could get out of the hatchback and run into the hotel room.

C: Mhmm.

K: So that nobody would see us because she was worried- she was afraid of being arrested and having us taken away from her.

C: Yeah.

K: And we knew why, she was really honest. So, for me, racism has always been a part of my life.

C: and it’s always been a part of mine, too. I didn’t always know it was a part of mine, but I know that my… maternal grandparents were Episcopalian. And when my mother said she was going to join the Mormon church, they told her they would disown her if she did.

K: Mmm.

C: And you know, I didn’t figure out until much later why they were so upset. It wasn’t just that they wanted everybody to be Episcopalian. It was that at the time, the Mormon church, like, had an explicit racist policy against black men. That they couldn’t receive the Melchizedek priesthood. Which in the Mormon church, there’s two priesthoods. There’s the Aaronic and Melchizedek. I know this is super boring, but the Aaronic, you give it to boys from 12 to 16 get it. And then the Melchizedek is what men get. And so not being able to get the Melchizedek priesthood meant the Mormon church was saying explicitly that black men can never be more than boys and that black families can only be here on earth- that black families are not married forever the way that white families are.

K: Yeah, because they can’t be married in the temple.

C: Yeah, exactly. And I was taught, and now they say “it was never doctrine” but I was taught this at multiple different places, so. Even if it wasn’t doctrine, it’s what people thought. That black people were the third of the Host of Heaven that sat out the war. So, anybody who was black, before they were born they were a coward.

K: Mmm. That’s deep.

C: Yeah, so, like… I grew up in, like, a super racist environment, and I know it’s been, you know, 30 years, no, almost 40 years now since the Mormon church changed their policy. But there’s still a lot of racist stuff. You know, when I was growing up, the Book of Mormon said, you know, that people who were righteous, their skin will turn white.

K: Mmm.

C: And that people should strive to be “white and delightsome”. And now they’ve changed it to “pure and delightsome” and tried to take out some of the more racist aspects of the Book of Mormon.

K: Yeah.

C: So, I still have Mormon friends, but not many. 

K: Yeah. And I have met Black Mormons.

C: Yeah.

K: So, I know a lot of Mormon people who are delightful. And I know a lot of African American Mormons. Soo, you know. It is what it is. So, then… the next time that I experienced racism was when Roots came out.

C: Mmm.

K: So, Roots was… simultaneously horrible and wonderful for me.

C: Mhmm.

K: Like, it was interesting for me because it was the first time being raised my mother and my father leaving my life when I was about six or seven. There was, from about seven to I want to say thirteen, I didn’t see my father for those years. And I wasn’t around his family. And so all of the blackness that I encountered was not familial blackness. It was community blackness. And so I didn’t know our family’s history. And I didn’t learn our family’s history until I was- our family’s history was slavery – until I was in my 40s. So, I didn’t know my great grandfather was freed by the Emancipation Proclamation.

C: I was there when your grandmother decided she was finally ready to have that conversation. I think because she was like “I think I’m going to die soon, so I think I should tell somebody.”

K: Well and too, the rest of the family didn’t have the same relationship with my grandmother that I had. For some reason, she just entrusted me with the history of the family, and I got the deeper version of stories and histories and all of that. So, for me, seeing that I was fascinated and for me, seeing Roots, it made me so just proud of my ancestry on a level that I wasn’t proud before. Like, I was always happy to be me, but proud that like, “dang, I come from strong stock” because me the person, even at that really young age, because I think I was like ten at the time, I was like “I could not survive that.” And so, my people were the people who survived that, and I was just really fascinated. It was sad and it made me cry, and then it was the first time that I personally was called a racial slur. 

C: Mhmm.

K: And at school, there was a lot of racial division, and I think that was surprising to me. To be called a racial slur and to be teased because of my ethnicity. And, so, in being in foster care, being in and out of foster care, this was the first foster home that I was in where I was the only black child in foster care. All of the other children who were in foster care were of a different nationality. So the reason that I’m not saying the nationality is because I don’t believe in division and divisiveness. And so I don’t want to paint any one ethnicity as being more inherently racist than the other. And I think brown people need to stick together. Black and brown people need to stick together. I think all people need to stick together, but specifically, I don’t like divisions within minorities. I think if minorities put all color together, that they could become the majority and they would become more powerful from being able to support each other’s things. And so, this isn’t like a rant against people who are white, this is my take as a brown person. I don’t like divisions within brown people. 

So, it was surprising to me and shocking to me, and forever changed the way that I viewed race. And for a lot of years, it was hard for me to have that inclusive mindset that I had had prior to that. Because it was really systemic and really horrific. And for, I’m ashamed to say there was a few years of my life that I became really racist myself. As a reaction to the racism that I had encountered. And I had to do a lot of good work to get back to an anti-bias mindset. Which I embrace and love now. So, what’s your experience with racism? What- so, do you feel like you were aware of racism when you were young? 

C: I don’t feel like I really became aware of racism until fifth grade. Which would be when I was 8. And, if you’re doing the math, yes. I entered kindergarten early, and then I skipped a grade. So, fifth grade, I was 8. 

K: (laughs) Ever the mathematician. “If you’re doing the math” yeah, because that’s what everybody’s doing right now. They’re doing math.

C: Yeah. So, and, my fifth grade teacher was named Ms. Kratz. She was Filipina. 

K: Why are you calling her out? You better be saying good things.

C: She was awesome.

K: Was she? Okay.

C: She was awesome. She was the best teacher ever. And she was old at the time, so I think she’s probably passed on from this mortal plane for many years now.

K: My fifth grade teacher, Mrs. Holmberg, best teacher on planet earth, and I think she’s still around.

C: And I never heard anybody saying anything about her being Filipina or anything. 

K: Shout out Linda Vista elementary school. Okay, sorry, go on.

C: So, this isn’t about this. This is about this one kid Alfred. Who, I don’t know his last name, so even if- and Alfred was black. Which I never thought anything of because I grew up a military kid. First, I was at BYU, which is 100% white except for one Japanese kid that we knew because my dad knew Japanese, so he made sure to befriend the Japanese family. So, this kid Hirobumi… I’m not going to say his last name, but Hirobumi was my older brother’s friend.

K: Okay.

C: So, that was like the one kid and I had an Italian friend. And that’s how white BYU was, it was important that he was Italian. Not

K: Okay, so he’s not English.

C: Right. But, fifth grade, this one kid Alfred. I had just come into fifth grade because I skipped fourth grade, but not immediately. So I came into fifth grade, I was the new kid even though I’d been at the same school. And he’d stand behind me in line always. And whisper in my ear “hey cracker, hey cracker.”

K: “Hey cracker”?

C: Yeah. “Honkey, honkey. I’m going to beat you up. I’m going to beat you up.”

K: Oh my gosh.

C: “I’m going to get you honkey.” And then one day, he did. Like, afterschool beat me up.

K: Aww. How sad. What must he have encountered in his life? Like, as an adult, that’s deep.

C: Yeah, as an adult.

K: Poor baby.

C: So, you know

K: And I’m sorry for you too, by the way. But we’ve spoken privately about how that’s so wrong. That’s emotional terrorism.

C: Yeah. So, as an eight year old, I did as you do when something bad happens. And you tell your parents.

K: Mhmm.

C: Now as an adult, I look at the power dynamic, and I think okay, at the time my dad was in the JAG, the Judge Advocate General corps. So he was one of the prosecutors for the military base where we lived, and where Alfred’s dad was an enlisted man.

K: Mmm. Big power dynamic shift there. Your father has way more power than poor little Alfred’s dad.

C: Right, so my dad, being the person he is, rather than calling the school principal, you know, he disciplined Alfred’s father. So, it affected his career.

K: Oh my gosh, yeah, that’s like… serious… that’s that eternal consequence vibe coming down.

C: Right. So, now I’m like I was totally participating in a racist system. It wasn’t my intent to get Alfred’s father involved. I never met Alfred’s dad.

K: Yeah, you just wanted Alfred to stop talking smack. Fighting you.

C: Yeah. Because I didn’t know what a cracker was, or a honkey. Like, other people very helpfully explained to me what it was. Which was not actually helpful, in case people didn’t pick up on the sarcasm. 

K: Yeah.

C: But, you know, he didn’t do anything to me after that. He left me alone. But that was my first experience of, of like racism. And the racism was… my father’s, you know, going after the parents. Not the bigotry that this kid had been instilled with.

K: Yeah. So, that bias that that kid was demonstrating towards you, and this is really important for people to understand that racism is about a power dynamic.

C: Right.

K: and racism isn’t- racism, bigotry and bias are different things. 

C: Mhmm.

K: And so when you hear African Americans say “I can’t be racist” they’re talking about the power structure. They’re not saying that they can’t be biased. They’re not saying that they can’t be bigoted. They’re saying that “we are not in the majority, we are the minority. We don’t have the power structure. It’s a top-down power structure in the United States, and we are not at the top.” And so, for anybody who’s like “yeah but what about Obama?” I tell you, Obama my ass. Because what really changed for race? We’re still having “I can’t breathe” and the “Black Lives Matter” movement started under Obama because we’re still seeing police officers gunning down our youth for no reason. We’re still having people calling the police on little girls selling lemonade. You know. 

C: So, and I think of racism as a system. And because I’ve read a lot about it, I’m not saying I’m right, I’m saying this is the view I have taken from the literature.

K: Yeah. He’s not whitesplaining. He’s just explaining his point of view.

C: Thank you. So, I think that people of color, black people, indigenous people, can absolutely have racist ideas and uphold racism. But I think that when that happens, what they’re doing is upholding the system that already exists to benefit whites. 

K: Yes. So, that’s internal racism.

C: Right.

K: And I think that’s the important distinction that yes there are African Americans that have internal racism. Just like there are Native Americans that have internal racism.

C: Right.

K: And, if- and that’s when- so, for me, I see internal racism happening in my communities when they uphold or they forgive away overt racism.

C: Yeah.

K: And I was like “you’ve got to deconstruct and dismantle these sort of ideals.” And so, for me, as a woman of color being married to like… I jokingly call you the whitest man on earth. It was really challenging when we first met because you didn’t understand the black tax. And you really did not understand racism. And it took many, many, many, many, many, MANY, many years for you to understand that Alfred was not racist against you. 

C: Right.

K: And that was not you experiencing racism.

C: Right.

K: That was you experiencing bias. His bias, and that was bigotry. And, when we would go out places and a white person would just step in front of me or just cut in line in front of me, you’d just say “no, that wasn’t racist” and I’m like “okay, if fifteen white women do this to me in one day, like how many would it take for you to admit that it was racist?” Or when the person at the deli counter looks around me to serve the behind me because

C: Right.

K: They don’t think that I am worthy, that I have enough worth or value. That I get to, you know, I stood in line patiently. I should be able to be served when it’s my turn. They don’t think that the white person behind me should have to wait. They believe that their value is greater than mine. So, having to explain all of that to you was really hard. And really quite painful. And I don’t feel like you actually got it until we came to Japan.

C: I think I didn’t get how pervasive it was. It still seemed like an individual choice, and I- I’ve done a lot of reading since we’ve come to Japan. We’ve been here twelve years now, so I’ve had time to do reading. 

K: Yeah. The majority of our marriage at this point.

C: Right. So, I’ve done a lot of reading of, you know, not just theory, but, you know, Ralph Ellison’s Invisible Man, you know, Stamped from the Beginning by Ibram X. Kendi. A lot of, of black writing on what racism is as well.

K: Well, and I want to say the beautiful thing about that is what inspired you to do that is the fact that you’re raising a black man.

C: Yeah.

K: And I think when, when Rasta was younger, you did the good work of learning how to pick out his afro and singing the Beautiful People Have Afros song and, you were really celebratory of him, and you’ve always been an amazing father. But when you saw him getting older, I think when it hit you was when Rasta was online. The day that I think it really clicked for you was when Rasta was online and he was called a racial slur. The first time Rasta was called a racial slur by somebody that he had been very close with, and they picked that to be the thing to hurt him.

C: Mhmm.

K: You were like, “I’ve got to understand this” because why would this person, who was like, supposedly best online friends with him, pick that thing to say. And Rasta didn’t know it was a racial slur. I did, and I hit the roof, and I was like “no, you’re not ever going to be friends with that person again. They crossed the line, that was something they can never undo because that was in their heart to say.”

C: Right.

K: And then we had a discussion as a family about what was in people’s hearts. And if racism is in someone’s heart, then they’re not a safe person. And our child deserves to be able to tell the difference between a safe person and an unsafe person, and I think that was the first time I explained it in a way that it resonated with you.

C: Yeah. And I think because I had thought “well, I’m not a bigot, I know that I’m not a bigot, here’s all the reasons that I know I’m not a bigot”

K: Yeah, you’re absolutely not. 

C: And “I’m not biased, and here’s all the reasons I know I’m not biased.” But, what I was thinking when I said “I’m not biased” is I’m not directly biased.

K: Yeah.

C: I wasn’t thinking about how I would excuse the bias of others.

K: Yes.

C: and the part that that played in upholding racism.

K: Yes.

C: And I think back to a conversation that my parents had in front of me and my older brother. When, you know, my brother’s friends were walking away from a house they had been visiting, and he mentioned one of them. And they said “oh, which one is that” and he said “oh, the one wearing the jean jacket.” And they said “see, you’re not racist at all because you didn’t say the black one.”

K: Yeah.

C: And then, like, looking back 

K: Perpetrating that fraud.

C: Oh, okay, so you guys see him as the black one. That’s what I see now.

K: Yeah.

C: So, that kind of thing of just like, you just don’t say it, then, you know, it’s not racist. 

K: Well, and you were tolerating racism in your family, and you were tolerating racism among some of your friends. Because it’s that low-key racism where we tell jokes based- where the punchline is a person’s color, but if we change- we substitute black for green, then ha-ha we’re just making a joke about green people, but we’re not making a racist joke.

C: Right.

K: Or a friend of yours saying “how do you cut Rasta’s hair, with a weed whacker?” Not realizing that that is a racist statement because there’s nothing exceptional about Rasta’s hair. That’s the way millions of millions of people’s hair just naturally grows out of their head that way. And, no, you wouldn’t use a weed whacker, and his hair doesn’t look like weeds growing up. It’s a beautiful afro, and he’s got a crown. That’s his crown.

C: And I grew up my whole childhood hearing jokes about Polish people. But

K: Which is extremely racist.

C: But I didn’t know they were jokes about Polish people because it was using a slur, and I did not know that that slur referred to Polish people. 

K: Yes. And so, for me, it’s like, I get the, the ignorance that was inherently involved. But even when I was educating you on this, you were so resistant to it. Until

C: Right. And I think a lot of people get stuck- a lot of white people get stuck on this because “well I’m not a bigot, so how could I be participating in racism?” 

K: Yes.

C: And they don’t see that racism is a whole power structure. It’s like a net. So, if you are one knot in that net holding it together, it’s like you’re reaching out to all the other people to reassure them that they’re not racist either.

K: And forgiving people for their racism when you cannot do that. 

C: Right.

K: So, I want everyone who’s white to hear this. You cannot forgive a white person for being bigoted against me. That is not your place. That is for me to decide. You can educate them. And people listen. This is just a true fact about everybody. People listen to their own kind.

C: Yeah.

K: So, for me, I work at the level that I have reach. I find that sometimes women will be more likely to listen to me than men will be more likely to listen to me, but if you are a white man, you have a reach that nobody else in terms of deconstructing the racist system. By speaking out and uplifting voices and signal boosting. Because Chad signal boosts my voice. It’s just a reality. Do we like that reality? No. But that’s the truth of it. Chad signal boosts my voice.

C: So, in case you’re listening, Jill Biden, you cannot forgive Joe on behalf of Anita.

K: Thank you. You can’t. 

C: And that- that’s not just something that applies at the national level. It applies at the personal level, too. You can’t forgive your family… like, on behalf of your partner, if your partner is of a different ethnicity than you. 

K: Correct. You can never forgive your brother for flinching when he met me.

C: Right.

K: And the fact that, when you called out your family about the racist things they were doing, that they chose to just drop you from email and message chains. And never even acknowledged that that had went down. To me, that’s like, okay, one: you know you’re wrong. And two: you have no interest in evolving or changing. And so, three: you’ve just- I had invited them to not be a part of my life long before that because I don’t tolerate racism and I don’t tolerate bias and bigotry in my life. Zero tolerance for it. I just don’t want that energy around me. But I think with us being in Japan, it kind of… changed things because in Japan was the first time that you were ever standing in line that the person behind you just walked in front of you. 

C: Yeah.

K: That was your first experience of it, so I’m going to let you speak about that

C: Yeah, so living in Japan really opened my eyes to how it’s a whole system. Because before that, I wasn’t understanding it. So, the “I have a black friend” defense seemed like “well, maybe.”

K: And for you, it was like, your defense was “I have a black wife and a black son” and you thought “I’m good” and so, we’re not tokens for him in any way. But like, it was just reinforcing that like “I didn’t see you as a black woman, I saw you as a woman.”

C: Well, and it was reinforcing what I had seen in my childhood. Which, you know, my brother’s girlfriend for a while was Alaska Native. She didn’t stop being Alaska Native, she stopped being his girlfriend.

K: (laughs) Important distinction.

C: Yeah. And one of his best friends was black, and you know, my parents didn’t mind us being friends with people who weren’t white. Because they were assimilationist racists. They believed that, you know, you can aspire to be white. That you can act good enough to be considered as good as whites.

K: Yeah.

C: Just by default, you’re not, but you can rise to that level.

K: And they’re okay with dating, they’re not okay with marrying.

C: Yes. So, when I

K: Because all of your brothers dated women of color.

C: Right.

K: All of, I think, all of your brothers did. I know a few of your brothers did, not sure about one. And it was fine at the dating level, it’s just you don’t marry color.

C: Right.

K: And so the fact that you were going to marry color, I think, was the issue.

C: Yeah, I think so. So, moving to Japan opened my eyes to the whole system of it: how, like, everybody reaches out to their, you know, nearest, in this case, Japanese person to reassure themselves that they’re not racist. 

K: Yeah.

C: This is just how things are.

K: Yeah.

C: So yeah, I was standing in the convenience store, and, like, at the front of line. Like, I am next to be served once the person in front of me gets done, and somebody just came up and stood in front of me. 

K: And then the cashier rings them up.

C: Yeah.

K: And that’s the racist part. It’s that everybody is just okay. Because in Japan, I’m not visibly different, I’m not visibly other. Like, if I don’t- if I wear sunglasses, I’m not visibly other. My eyes are very distinctive, so it’s obvious I’m not Japanese, but I look part Japanese. So, nobody ever identifies me as having no Japanese heritage.

C: You look so part Japanese that people insist you must have Japanese heritage you just don’t know about.

K: Yes. And argue with me about it, and I’m like “nooo.”

C: Like “are you sure you’re not nisseijin?” Which is just descended from Japanese people, usually people from Brazil.

K: Yeah, like “no, I’m not” but right on, I understand your ownership of me, and I understand your welcoming. So, aside from that, I think you’ve experienced- so to me, we talked about it in the other cast, like, the hat, glasses, and beard being criminal. 

C: Right.

K: But also the Japanese people believe that only foreigners do drugs.

C: Yes. 

K: And they say this publicly and on television. And in the news, they report this.

C: Yeah, so last year, in 2018, I think there were like 116 arrests for cocaine possession. Every single one of them was a non-Japanese person. Like, literally no Japanese person did cocaine or had any involvement with cocaine. 

K: Well, I’ve had clients that have been arrested for drugs, and an interesting thing about Japan is, if you have drugs in your system, that’s considered possession. And if you get arrested, they don’t need any other thing than arresting you to take your blood and your urine. They go through your phone

C: What about the fourth amendment rights?

K: Yeah, come on, there’s no constitution- there’s a constitution here, but it’s not the American constitution. So, they go through your phone, and they will call all of the foreign people and interview them. But they won’t interview the Japanese people, looking for your drug connections.

C: Right.

K: That’s such a trip to me, like really? You don’t think they could have possibly gotten drugs from a Japanese person?

C: Okay? You have criminal organizations which have listed street addresses because

K: (laughs) Right.

C: Because it’s not illegal to be a member of the yakuza. The yakuza are not illegal. So, even though we had to sign this thing attesting we’re not yakuza and such, to buy our apartment. So, it’s legal to discriminate against members of the yakuza, but it’s not illegal to be a member of the yakuza. So, that’s its own complicated thing.

K: Yeah.

C: But yeah, you would think they would look to the crime organizations as the ones perpetuating the crime, but no, it’s, you know, the English teachers and the other people who are foreigners.

K: Yeah, and then there’s a popular stereotype in Japan, and one of the- and… the, it’s Charisma Man. It’s a white man from the United States or Canada or Australia or the U.K. and it’s specific to those places. Those white men because the Japanese racism is so specific.

C: Well, that’s a particular Japanese racism about who really speaks English. So, there are some chains

K: Yeah.

C: And this is completely legal, so there’s nothing you can do it about it. There are some English school chains that only consider you a native English speaker if you are from the U.S. Canada, Australia, or the United Kingdom. Like, if you’re from New Zealand, not a native English speaker. If you’re from South Africa? Not an English speaker. If you’re from Nigera, not a native English speaker. Even if English really is your native language.

K: Yeah. And, in Japan, there are, like, the racism- they are really out and proud with their racism. There are restaurants and bars that have signs in the windows that say “no foreigners”

C: Right. And this is illegal, but the way that the Japanese legal system works, it doesn’t use Common Law. It uses- it’s descended from the Napoleonic code. Which means just because the Supreme Court has ruled a hundred times it’s illegal to exclude foreigners, you still might have to take your case all the way to the Supreme Court if you want to pursue it.

K: Yeah.

C: So you’re looking at spending 10,000 dollars to be able to go to a racist restaurant.

K: Yeah, and who wants to do that? Ain’t nobody got time for that.

C: Right.

K: Maybe some people do, but I don’t know- I personally don’t have the time for that.

C: I know one person who had the time for that, he’s made his whole career on it. You know, so. That whole thing. So, yeah

K: And then every New Year’s, there’s blackface.

C: Yeah.

K: And

C: And they’re like “what? It’s not racist. We’re not thinking of any particular race. It’s just black, black isn’t a race is it?”

K: So, in 2019 specifically, they were doing a skit, and the actor was being- they were doing a skit from the movie 48 Hours that starts Eddie Murphey, and because he was portraying Eddie Murphey, he put on blackface and an afro wig. And he was like “what, I’m just paying homage. I’m a comedian. I really respect Eddie Murphey, and I was just trying to look like him.” He didn’t understand the history of blackface in the United States. And it’s been, just, something that comes up over and over again. It’s in advertising. It’s- blackface is pervasive in Japan.

C: There’s a lot of anti-black bias, and it extends to people who are Japanese but are darker. So there’s a lot of colorism in it.

K: Yes, there’s like, on the subway you see ads for skin bleaching. 

C: But, you know, one positive thing is that, in 2019, there was a law passed recognizing the Ainu people as the indigenous people of Hokkaido.

K: Which is huge. 

C: We went a few years ago to the Ainu museum and saw all the different cultural artifacts, and they had people who were Ainu there explaining things. So, that was really, really interesting.

K: It was really fun, really fun.

C: Yeah, but that’s the first time that the Japanese government

K: So if you go to Hokkaido, absolutely go to Asahikawa, and absolutely go to the museum. Beautiful, gorgeous stuff. Really, really, really, really interesting exhibit. Lots of fun, very interactive.

C: But that was the first time that the Japanese government has recognized that there were indigenous people. There are also indigenous people in the Ryuuku islands and Okinawa and such. So, Japan has its own problems with its own indigenous people and its own racial problems, but this was not about their problems, but this was about my experience with racism. 

K: Yeah, so I think that in the future I think we’ll do a cast specifically on racism in Japan, because that was- I kind of feel like this was maybe a part one.

C: Yeah, maybe, yeah.

K: And then, I don’t know, I’d have to look at the list. Maybe we’ll do a part two in a couple months or so, I don’t know. Let us know, are you interested in a part two?

C: Yeah. What I’ve learned how to say really well in Japanese is two phrases.

K: What?

C: It’s one is “just because I’m white doesn’t mean I don’t speak Japanese” for when people are talking about me.

K: Ohh yeah, because you have a thing about that. 

C: Yeah. And another one is “no, please go ahead, you are the most important person in the world, you are so special.”

K: Which is ironic because I used to say that to white people in the United States, and you would get so upset with me, like “don’t pick a fight.”

C: That’s how I came up with what to say. So I know how to say that in Japanese.

K: So, for me, the most racism I’ve ever experienced in my life, interestingly enough, liberal white women are the most- have been the most racist against me. 

C: Oh, yeah, my mother was a complete hardcore racist. She campaigned against the Equal Rights Amendment. She’s

K: But your mom was conservative. So, I’ve had liberal white women

C: No, she voted democrat. She was very proud she voted democrat.

K: That doesn’t mean she’s not conservative. 

C: That’s true.

K: She was conservative. That’s right, we talk about her in the past tense.

C: Yes.

K: So, for me, liberal white women have the condescending kind of patronizing “my little brown sister needs me to uplift her”

C: Mhmm.

K: And so the difference between signal boosting and being an ally versus being condescending is whether or not you come with a listening ear and you represent me in the ways that I ask to be represented.

C: Yeah.

K: And so when one woman champions a cause that is not my mine and then uses me as a mascot for that cause, that is racist. Please do not make me a mascot. So, I say for everybody out there who wants to signal boost, start by listening. And if you’re on social media, start by just retweeting or resharing or saying “I support you” or saying “I’m with you” and then really getting to learn what people are saying and learn their point of view. And then boosting it. Like, for me, I really believe in supporting the disabled community. I’m part of that community, but I’m not a wheelchair user. So, therefore, I do not speak on what the experience of being a wheelchair user is. Instead, I retweet and boost and share that I think it’s wrong whenever they encounter ableism.

C: Yeah.

K: So, I’m part of the LGBTQ community, I like to really support trans rights. I think trans rights are human rights, but I am aware that I am not trans, so I never speak on the trans experience. Instead, I support all of my trans siblings when they speak on their experience. And I say “hey, we’ve got to use the right pronouns, we’ve got to be inclusive, and it’s not okay for us to be exclusionary or bigoted or biased.” I am Indigenous, but I am not from every single tribe, we have different tribes, and so some tribes have different experiences than other tribes. And I signal boost, and I say “hey, let’s showcase this, but this is specific to this tribe’s issues.” So it’s about listening. It’s about supporting. It’s about knowing your lane. And really only speaking on your own lived experience. And when someone tells you their lived experience, don’t correct them. Believe them. That’s their life, you know. They know what they’ve been through.

C: Yeah. So, I want to say, stay in your lane. I had to look this up because I kept hearing it so much. It’s a sports analogy, it doesn’t mean “shut up”, it means “if you stay in your lane, then you are doing the most you can”

K: It’s a track analogy.

C: Yeah. You’re doing the most you can for progressing those things. So, if you stay in your lane by signal boosting, you’re providing more power than you could on your own. 

K: Yes.

C: And so, it doesn’t mean shut up, it means make sure that you’re… being part of the team and playing the right role in that team.

K: Yeah, and it’s really about don’t ever say what a black woman’s experience is if you’re not a black woman. And realize that even for individuals who are African American and black, we’re not a monolith. So, there is diversity within every group, and so treat people as individuals, and then treat causes as causes. And know that people are not causes. And make sure you understand that differentiation. 

C: Yeah.

K: So, wow, we got deep. We went in today. We keeping it one hundred, keeping it real.

C: Yup.

K: (laughs) There wasn’t as much laughing this episode, but, you know, racism isn’t funny. 

C: Nope, it’s still not.

K: So, we hope that you hang with- hung with us to the end, and next week we’re going to be talking about something lighter. Not sure off the top of my head what that is, but I just know it’ll be something lighter. (laughs)

C: Yup. Talk to you next week.

K: Hey, we didn’t have any digressions.

C: No, a single-topic podcast.

K: We stayed focus, woop, good for us. Thank you for listening, and we hope you tune in next week.

C: Bye-bye.

K: Bye.