Kisstopher loves Chad’s books, we talk about them, and we talk about gatekeeping in literature.

Transcript

K: So, lately I’ve been thinking about gatekeeping. But specifically gatekeeping in literature. Like, poetry and books and… what else? Like, blogs… what else is literature?

C: Blogs aren’t literature.

K: Blogs aren’t literature? 

C: I mean, they can be, but most of them…

K: You don’t think your blog is literature?

C: I don’t, no.

K: Your blog that drops every Wednesday. And everyone should read it. Your blog about writing. You don’t think that that’s literature? So, it’s like… short stories, poetry, novels, novellas.

C: Talking about them, but I don’t drop a novel every Wednesday.

K: No, you don’t (laughs) drop a novel every Wednesday. That would be amazing if you did. That would be kinda scary.

C: Yeah.

K: Like, does anybody drop a novel a week?

C: Yes.

K: Like, factory people or like…?

C: No.

K: Like, romance?

C: Yes.

K: So, I could write a straight up porn novel once a week.

C: I know you can.

K: I write some good porn. (laughs) But it’s not for public consumption. I write good porn for us to enjoy.

C: Yes. In words, not just with your life.

K: (laughs) Oh my gosh. That was so smarmy, cheesy, and fabulous. That was like the best thing ever. Thank you, I so needed that laugh.

C: Well, I edited a lot of romance, so I know how these things go.

K: Yeah, you do. You know how to get the getting. (laughs)

C: Mhmm. How to adjust the steam level appropriately.

K: Yes. So, I think what’s, what’s got me thinking about gatekeeping in literature has kind of been your process. And you’ve written five novels, and they’re all fabulous and amazing and very different. So, I kind of want to talk about them from my perspective so you don’t sound like some pompous ass on a podcast pontificating on how amazing they are.

C: I will do my best to sound like a pompous ass without your help.

K: (laughs) No, I said I’m going to do it so you don’t sound like a pompous ass. 

C: Oh, okay.

K: So, okay, the first novel, I forget what the first novel was even called. What was it called? Did you name it?

C: I hadn’t decided on a name.

K: Okay, did you name it and I just don’t know it? Don’t make me look like a bad wife, like did you name it?

C: No, I had a name, but I don’t remember what it was.

K: Okay, thank you, just come clean, man. Just come clean. The family has sort of forgotten that one.

C: I had a working title, but it was not important.

K: Yeah. So I felt like the first book was really good, but it was so based… I wasn’t raised Mormon, although I did go through the conversion process but didn’t get baptized or anything, didn’t actually convert because they wanted me to promise to quit smoking, and I was like “mmm, sorry, can’t give up my tobacco to get baptized” so they wouldn’t baptize me. Like, can’t we just quit for like a day and get baptized? No. I’m not going to get baptized under false pretenses. Knowing I was planning to smoke. Unlike my father who got baptized and smoked a cigarette right afterwards.

C: Well, and Mormons don’t believe it’s a sin to smoke or drink unless you’re Mormon. So they were asking you to like… be committing more sin. Because smoking wasn’t a sin for you because you weren’t Mormon, but if you became Mormon, then that would be a sin.

K: That’s what I thought because I turned up to one of my coaching, mentor, whatever sessions drunk. (laughs) Because my dad made me, and he beat the crap out of me after that, so I didn’t intend to turn up drunk, I just went to the park to hang out with some friends.

C: So you’re saying you turned up turnt up.

K: Yeah, I turned up turnt up. I was turnt up for reals. So I was at the park hanging out with my friends, and someone brought out a bottle of vodka. And I was like “yo, I’ve got this thing I’ve got to go do afterwards” but they said “oh, you won’t get drunk, we’re just going to play quarters. You’re really good at quarters.” So it’s a bunch of guys and two girlfriends of mine, so it’s like four guys and three girls. And all the guys were like “come on, you guys can do it, it’s okay” and I believed them. And then like afterwards, “all you have to do is drink like an egg after you drink and you won’t get drunk.” I’m like sixteen at the time, no I think I was fifteen, I was fifteen / sixteen at the time. I can’t remember which. So, I believed them because I didn’t know much about drinking then. Now I know, if you drink a raw egg on top of alcohol, you’ll probably puke, but that doesn’t prevent you from being drunk. It prevents you from getting drunker.

C: You’re a veteran. You know the egg rule.

K: Yeah, I do. So, then, I went back home, like they were like “oh man” I got hammered and I’m like “I’m way more messed up than I meant to be, my dad’s going to kill me” blah blah blah. And they were like “here, drink this egg and you’ll sober up.” So I drank it and nothing happened. 

C: Mhmm.

K: So, I showed up to my thing reeking

C: So you were like “yolk’s on you”

K: (laughs) Yes. So I showed up to the mentor’s session – what’s it called?

C: Hmm?

K: What’s it when the missionaries come to your house?

C: Well, I didn’t go on a mission because I had bad teeth. Because all four of my wisdom teeth were impacted.

K: And all of this is relevant to gatekeeping, I swear. We’re going to bring it back around, you guys are going to be amazed this time. (laughs)

C: So, I forget what it’s called, and it’s like… I forget what it’s called.

K: So, if you’re Mormon, and you know, or if you’re not Mormon and you know, hit us up on twitter or visit us on our website and drop a comment because I seriously, I want to know what the heck is it called. And I don’t think it’s called mentoring.

C: No.

K: I don’t know.

C: You’re an investigator, but I forget what the lessons are called. 

K: What? 

C: People who are taking the lessons are called investigators by the missionaries, but I forget what the lessons are called.

K: I was the “I don’t want to get kicked out of my house” kind but only kinda sorta because I showed up drunk. So I went back, everybody was like “yo man, we gotta get her home” so they take me to my house and they ring my doorbell and run away. So I’m just like standing there kinda like swerving, and my dad’s like “are you drunk?” and I was like “nooo”

C: Well, did you always have to ring your doorbell to get in your house?

K: No, I didn’t, I had a key.

C: Okay.

K: But there was like no using my key at that point. I was like blind drunk.

C: They couldn’t like could’ve unlocked for you and put your hand on it and be like “go girl”

K: I couldn’t… I couldn’t, no. It was a whole mess. I think I could’ve lost my key at that point. I don’t know what happened. I don’t remember it clearly.

C: So that drinking session took a year off of your life.

K: Yes, it did. Completely. So, I went in, and I’m talking to the guys, and I’m like… I’m hanging all over them. Not because I mean to be hanging all over them

C: So you don’t fall down.

K: Yeah, so I don’t fall down. And I end up sitting in one’s lap, and he jumps up and like throws me across the room, he jumps up with such force. And my dad was like “I think you guys should leave” and they were like “I think we should too” and he grabbed my arm and he starts beating the crap out of me. And I turn and I’m about to say “I’m so sorry daddy” but I ended up just puking all over him. 

C: He deserved that.

K: But, that did not stop the beating. He continued to beat me all the way to the shower, and he beat me while I took my clothes off. He beat me when I came out of the shower. It was like, it was a beat down. Like WWF beatdown.

C: He didn’t understand, he was trying to bring the spirit into your life, and you already had the spirits.

K: Yeah. I had enough spirits, thank you. So that was like, an epic beatdown. And then after that, they came back to the house, and they said “look, we’re going to have to talk to you, we’re not going to be able to be your missionaries anymore.” And I was like “why” and they were like “because you’re always trying to incite lust” this that and I was like “oh please don’t stop being my missionaries, I promise I’ll behave” and then they were like “okay, come to this picnic.” And then I went to the picnic and they set me up with the only other black dude, the only other black teenager, in the church. 

And we ended up dating for a really long time. Fabulous relationship. Really great guy, I had tons of fun. So, that was my experience with the Mormon church. And I went in, and I saw their little slideshow, but you say the only church that has the slideshow is the one I went to, where it has the lit up panels, like you go and you sit down and they’re telling you the story of, like, what’s… Joseph, and like the trumpet, and the gold book and all that. And the panels lit up. Like, around the church. As the recording played. It was amazing.

C: I still think you were high.

K: No. I might’ve been- no, I wasn’t. I wasn’t. But that’s honestly what happened. 

C: That depends on where you went. Like, if you went to the open temple visitor center, then that might’ve happened there.

K: You know I did.

C: Okay, then that probably happened there.

K: Oh my gosh. Act like you know my history.

C: I lived in Utah when I was a little kid, but since

K: What does that have to do with (laughs) At the time I was going through this, you lived in Alaska, not Utah.

C: No, but, since the time I was eight, I didn’t live anywhere near a temple, so I’ve never been to a temple.

K: What?

C: I’ve never been to a temple.

K: Oh my god. So, okay, you guys, you have to go to our website and look at a picture of Chad. Or go to our twitter and look at, like, our avatar. Oh, wait, no, they’re seeing it if they come to the podcast because there’s a picture of us. Chad is like, the whitest, most mormonist, I guess maybe not anymore with the beard.

C: Not with the beard, no.

K: But when I met you, you were the whitest, mormonist looking dude I’ve ever known in my life. 

C: Yup.

K: And I guess now not so much.

C: Not so much because I’ve got the beard, I’ve got the cane, which they would’ve

K: And you have

C: They would’ve healed me by now.

K: Oh my gosh. Don’t talk smack. Don’t go on- don’t.

C: (laughs)

K: Don’t go weaving away because we’re here to talk about gatekeeping and literature. (laughs)

C: Yes.

K: So, the point of that whole ramble was that I didn’t really get to learn anything about the Mormon church.

C: Because the book was about it. And the book was mimicking the events of the book of Mormon, which would start off with the main character murdering somebody for a book. 

K: Yes.

C: And God being like “yes, murder that bastard”

K: And then, too, there’s like keeping children in cages. It was just like, I’m like “what is this? What are you saying? The story is just so bizarre”

C: Yeah. After Nephi murdered Laban, they kidnapped his servant Zoram and all of Zoram’s daughters because they needed women to marry and have babies with. 

K: Yes. And, so, that was in the book, but I was like “woah, this is so confusing. Is like…” every time I’d read a chapter, I remember we were on the train back from a vacation we took, and I’m like “what is this book about? It is making my brain melt. I cannot, I literally doubt my ability to understand the words written on the page.” It was so tres bizarre. And it started out being, like, a book about a boy who was maybe magical or not, an unreliable narrator, and then he just got more and more gruesome and maimed as it went on. It was just like “what is this about? What are- wha” so… yeah. Anyway. So, we moved on from that book. (laughs)

C: Yes.

K: And then you wrote what I call the trauma book, but what you call Not My Ruckus. 

C: Yeah.

K: In my defense, everybody who’s read the book said what about it?

C: Not everybody.

K: Okay, who hasn’t said that the book jacked them up?

C: One person.

K: One person said it- only one person?

C: Yeah.

K: So, out of like fifteen people who have read it.

C: Yeah.

K: It didn’t mess up one person.

C: Right. Exactly.

K: Oh my gosh. The book is so well-written, but it truly, truly captures trauma. Like, every trauma that’s written about in the book, it truly captures trauma. And, to me, this where like what I was thinking about becomes relevant. To me, it was so frustrating because I read the book, I thought it was really well-written. I thought it was very traumatic, but some of the themes that it talks about, because you are a white man who, on the outside looking in, you look very pristine. Like, I wouldn’t look at you and know your history of abuse. 

C: Yeah.

K: And so, because it’s not obvious that you have a history of abuse, and the type of abuse you write about in the book, you’re not allowed to write that book. 

C: Mhmm.

K: And I feel like, for those types of books, I, so- let me just say. I’m all for gatekeeping to a certain extent. I kind of feel like, you have to be members of the community that you’re doing gatekeeping for. Because, for me, as a woman who suffered trauma as a child, sexual abuse and trauma as a child, I would want to know, okay, as a man writing about this, my first question is “why are you writing this?” 

C: Mhmm.

K: And I don’t feel like gatekeepers start by asking questions. So, I guess, you don’t have to be a member of the community, although I really think you should. My opinion. Don’t send hate, you can send different opinions, but don’t send hate. So, what do you think- so, my advice to you was “don’t send that book to agents until you’ve gone public with your own abuse.”

C: Right.

K: So, how did you feel about that when I said that to you? Did you agree with it, did you not agree with it?

C: Yeah, no, I came to understand your thing because, to me, a lot of the stuff that I wrote about, I thought that I wasn’t being graphic. Like, and, my first critique was like “well, the sexual stuff is not graphic, but the physical abuse is super graphic”

K: Yes, and the emotional abuse.

C: And the emotional abuse, they’re li-

K: Super graphic. 

C: They were like “this is super graphic” I was like “I thought I was being, like, subtle with it. I thought that I was- that I had a light touch on it.”

K: I think because you’re comparing that to the abuse you’ve actually suffered.

C: Yes.

K: And, so, when you- if you compare it to your own history of abuse, yes. It was a light touch. And if you compare it to my history of abuse, it’s absolutely a light touch. The other day you described me in such a beautiful way. I was the most traumatized and well-put together, I don’t know, you had like a whole thing. Do you remember?

C: Yeah. You’re the person that’s gone through the most trauma, but is also the- one of the best adjusted people that I know.

K: Thank you. So, I feel complimented by both. Well, I feel honored that you recognize how traumatized I am, but I also feel really grateful that you recognize all the good work I did- I’ve done, and still doing, because I’m a- my favorite work in progress is myself. So, when I read the book, it really took me back to that space and time. And it was actually quite triggering for me because some of the things that one of the characters went through was almost exact, exact for some things that I had gone through, although you did not write about my abuse. I want to be clear about that.

C: No,

K: Some of the things that the characters went through, you went through

C: Yes.

K: As a child as well. And, you do try to distance it, but I felt like because of- it made me sad that because of who you are, that I was in a position to say “right now, who you appear to be to the rest of the world, not even who you are, but who you appear to be, you’re not allowed to write that book.”

C: Mhmm.

K: And, I don’t know, I feel like if people were willing to talk to you and get to know you rather than make assumptions about you, then they would welcome it. Because it’s a well-written book. It’s a good book.

C: Well, and I tried to write it in a way that it’s cathartic rather than exploitation.

K: Yeah, I didn’t think it was exploitive at all.

C: And none of my beta-readers did either. One of them said, like “wow, this book really shows the difference between, like, an R-rating where horrible things are happening and X-rating where that’s the point.” She said she never felt like it was prurient, it was always clear. 

K: I don’t think you’d give it an R rating, I’d say like PG13.

C: Yeah. I would say that too. Because PG13 can be pretty intense, but it’s always

K: It’s intense, it’s an intense run.

C: It’s always clear what’s happening is wrong. 

K: Yeah.

C: And it doesn’t dwell on details like some books and some TV shows made from books dwell on a lot of details unnecessarily, I think.

K: Yeah. So, then you said “okay, so I’m going to write a different book” and then you wrote one of the most beautiful- and this is, I get it, a biased wife’s opinion, but it’s not just my opinion. All of the beta-readers think so too. You wrote some of the most

C: All of my other wives. 

K: (laughs)

C: Char came back that, you know

K: I’m your only wife. Don’t mess around because you just said you’re Mormon. We’re not doing sister-wives. And I know not all Mormons do sister-wives. Don’t send hate. It’s a joke. Don’t take yourself so seriously. So anywho (laughs) So, because this goes along with the theme of gatekeeping and why it makes me so sad because then you wrote one of the most beautiful characters, a character I wish I had had in my life when I was a teenager. And a world that I wish I had in my life, and you wrote Ivy. And Ivy is a mixed African-American girl who is a wheelchair user. And one of the things that I love- I don’t’ know, does it spoil the ending to say something that happens? Or something that doesn’t happen?

C: It doesn’t. No.

K: So, at the end of the book, Ivy’s arc doesn’t end with her getting her legs back, getting the use of her legs back, and

C: It’s relevant to mention this is a magical realism book, so there’s a lot of magic in the book.

K: Yes, but the- and magical things happen to Ivy, and she’s in a magical world. But she’s still in a wheelchair at the end of the book. And I think something else that’s really great is that she was born this way, it wasn’t- although there are tragic things that happen, it wasn’t a tragedy. So, to me, it’s completely not inspo-porn, inspiration porn, at all in this character, and it’s really real. And there’s some really funny and clever ways that you handle race and Ivy’s race in the book to introduce that. I’m not going to say how you do it.

C: Yeah.

K: Because I want to leave that for everybody who reads it, because it’s just really a fun way to do it. You introduce her race, her ethnicity in a really fun way. And the way you handled it was so, just, to me as part of- not fully the inspiration, but part of the inspiration for Ivy, some of the experiences I’ve had in my life. I felt really honored, and all of, you know, all of our sisters who read it felt really honored. And we’re blessed enough to know beautiful, powerful black women in our lives, and they were like “yeah, no, this completely gets it.” There was like one thing that you didn’t get right that you got feedback on, had to do with sand and a wheelchair and all of that stuff. Like, the technical use of a wheelchair, but never in the treatment of Ivy, I felt.

C: Yeah.

K: And it’s just- it’s challenging to me that people are like “well, why do you get to write Ivy? You know, you’re white. You’re a man. And you’re not visibly disabled.”

C: Well I think it

K: You’re not obviously disabled.

C: I mean, now I am, because I carry a cane, but.

K: And you wear your glasses for epilepsy. 

C: Yeah.

K: But both of those look like accessory choices, not mobility choices.

C: I think it’s different because I’m not writing, like… a while ago, there was an author who wrote, you know, a version of Mulan. It was not Chinese.

K: Mhmm.

C: And there was a lot of, you know, hubbub about that and appropriation.

K: Yes, that’s total appropriation. Mulan is not your story.

C: Yeah, I agree. But the story that I’m telling here isn’t like, a retelling of a classic story or anything.

K: No it’s not.

C: and the way that I tried to approach it is the narrator has an outsider’s viewpoint, so

K: Yes. 

C: I’m not writing as Ivy.

K: No, you’re not.

C: and I’m not writing as Himitsu, the other main character, who is a Japanese boy, so it’s always an outsider’s perspective because I feel like that’s my perspective. Now, I took an insider perspective on disability because I feel like that’s something that, that is part of my identity that I have a right to do, and a lot of what I wanted to do with the book is to normalize it. That this is just a part of life for the characters in the book. 

K: Yeah. And I think you do a really great job. I think the character that you take the most insider’s viewpoint on is, uh, the character Simon, who comes in halfway through the book.

C: Right.

K: And Simon is a white guy who used to teach middle school. And you’re a white guy who used to teach middle school.

C: Yeah.

K: You know. And he has PTSD from childhood trauma, you have PTSD from childhood trauma. So I feel like the only time you were writing, truly writing form an insider’s perspective was in writing that character.

C: Yeah.

K: And everyone who’s read the book has- we’ve all given the feedback “this is a really special book. This is a really great story.” And then they say “we don’t quite know how it’s okay for you to write it.”

C: Mhmm.

K: And having to validate your experience, which I think is okay, but then after hearing all of that, for them to be like “Yeahh, but we’re still not sure you should be the one writing this.”

C: Mhmm.

K: You know. That kind of feedback, like, “convince me that you know how to handle this topic and that you know how to make this palatable to me.”

C: Right.

K: And, so, some of the changes that people have asked and the feedback we’ve gotten from when we’re sending out to agents and all of that kind of stuff was “can you change this that or the other” and sometimes, they wanted us to change- they wanted you to change things about Japan. And Japanese culture.

C: Yeah.

K: So, it was just really… interesting to me the way that nobody was like “you know what, it’s totally cool that you wrote this.”

C: Well, and a lot of it was “can you change it so that it matches” like, a lot of the stuff that people said about disability was “can you change it so that it matches what I’ve read in stories written by abled people about disability.” 

K: Yeah.

C: “Can you change it, essentially, so that it has an abled gaze rather than… a disabled gaze.”

K: Yes. And it was… really hard for me when we were, you know, having the conversation about it. Having to explain to you, because you’re much more hopeful than I am

C: Yeah.

K: Having to explain to you that, no, it’s not going to be easy to sell a book where the main character is African-American, a female, and disabled. 

C: Yeah.

K: And that disability is part of the main source of the story. It carries a lot of… there are- a main part of the character, I like saying “we” like I have something to do with it. You didn’t ever hide the fact that Ivy’s in a wheelchair. And everything interacts with that aspect of her. Just like it would interact with when people are moving through it and they’re walking through spaces, how they walk through a space. And I thought it was really cool that you included some of the anxiety that- you know, that the lovely beautiful people that we have in our lives that inform us and educate us on what it means to be a wheelchair user. They share the anxieties with us because we’re part of the disabled community on twitter, which is gorgeous.

C: Right.

K: And the disability community. And they talk about the anxiety of “is it going to be accessible” like every single thing, is it going to be accessible? “Can I get from A to B? And once I get from A to B, can I get back from B to A?” So it’s never… they never are able to take it for granted that they’re going to be able to get to and from somewhere.

C: Right.

K: And that was really profound for me and very educational for me, and I’m humbled and honored that I was able to read their tweets and get that good education on board and that good understanding and now I’m a huge fan of the hashtag CripTheVote because I do think we need to talk about disability. And I do think, like, this book is important for middle grade students to read because Ivy is not exceptional because she’s in a wheelchair. Like, it’s not, you know, the X-men where “oh, well, he’s got the super brain.”

C: Right.

K: And later they changed it and said “oh it’s because he was shot” you know, they cleaned it up to modernize it. And it’s not “look, we’re a bunch of crimefighters, we’re superheroes.”

C: Right, she’s not exceptional because she uses a wheelchair, and she’s not exceptional despite using a wheelchair. She’s just both. She’s exceptional, and she’s in a wheelchair. She’s exceptional because her parents pushed her really hard.

K: Yeah. She’s exceptional because she’s smart. 

C: Yeah.

K: And she’s well read.

C: And because her parents pushed her so hard. 

K: Yeah.

C: So, that’s just, you know…

K: Intellectually, they pushed her so hard intellectually.

C: Right, right.

K: And I think that, for me, that’s what spoke to me because I was, even though I was raised in the foster care system, anytime I was around people of color, especially women of color, like all of my counselors, all of my therapists that were women of color, I felt so honored that I’m lucky that they always told me “your blackness can never be your excuse. You have to do better. You have to run faster. You have to jump higher. You don’t, you can’t afford to be less than. You have to be twice as good as everybody else in the room.” And I know that’s not a popular thing for people to hear, but that’s what I grew up with, and that driving force that my blackness is not going to be the reason that someone tells me no. I’m going to work harder. I’m going to be smarter. Ivy really embodied that for me, and I thought “this is such a cool character for you to talk about race.” For you to talk about ability. And why does Ivy have to be so exceptional? You know.

C: Right.

K: Why did her parents put that mantle on-

C: Well, and there were still things that she just wasn’t able to do. Because it’s not a matter of just like “if you believe you can do it.”

K: Yeah. Just like being in the foster care system definitely changed my trajectory.

C: Right.

K: Even though I’m working on my PhD now. Pretty awesome for a former foster kid high school dropout. 

C: Yeah.

K: Whoo, whoo, way to go Kisstopher. So, then, that’s my love song to Ivy. And I want to talk about another character of yours that I really love. That on the surface is a no-brainer, free to write, except for one little thing which I don’t think most people will get. And I don’t know if it spoils it in talking about Knot.

C: I don’t think so. 

K: Okay. So, Knot is an autistic, non-binary dragon.

C: Right.

K: And the non-binariness is very much front and center. But I’m not sure if it’s going to be in people’s faces in that way because Knot’s a dragon. 

C: Right.

K: So, I don’t- I’m curious to see, like,

C: And as far as Knot knows, they are the only dragon.

K: Yeah. And so, the… so I kind of think of Knot as non-binary and in terms of their presentation, gender-fluid. Because sometimes they present in very traditionally feminine ways and sometimes they present in very traditional masculine ways.

C: Yes.

K: Like, what’s considered stereotypical, and I know that gender is a social construct, so we are talking about that.

C: Yeah, they do whatever is convenient for the moment.

K: Yeah. So, to me, I thought, you know, because it’s a dragon with autism, and you have autism, that that would be okay. But a lot of people, the vibe and the energy, while no one has said this directly to you, but a lot of people bring the energy that if you’re not non-binary, you shouldn’t, especially as a cis-gender heterosexual white male, you shouldn’t be allowed to take the space of another non-binary writer who happens to be writing an autistic dragon. And I feel like that’s such, like, what?

C: Yeah, that’s again where these are my stories from my perspective, and I feel like, you know, if all I write is who I am, I think there are already enough books filled with just… white men. 

K: Yeah.

C: That are usually listed under action. 

K: Yeah.

C: You know. So, I don’t want to write action books.

K: And I feel like, too, that you’re very open, and you’ve been receptive to what your beta-readers have to say. And you are doing sensitive reads for every book that you write.

C: Yeah. Yeah. And the beta-reads that I’ve done with exchanges of sensitivity reads and just straight paying for sensitivity reads.

K: And so for me, I feel like we can’t treat, and I know this is me being biased because you’re my husband and I think that you’re amazing. But I feel like we do the world a disservice when we look at every white man and say “okay, you go over there because you’ve had all of this” and- I admit that I come from, you know, even being a child of foster care, that I still have privilege.

C: Mhmm.

K: You know. And I own my privilege. And I get that you have privilege, and I’m not saying that you’re not privileged. 

C: Yeah.

K: But to say that “we won’t even ask you why you’re writing this book. We won’t even ask ‘why you’ we won’t even have the conversation. We won’t ask someone from the community that we’re trying to gatekeep and protect. We won’t go in and find resources in that community to be a better judge.” Because, what’s offensive to me, you know, I’m just one black woman. 

C: Right.

K: And black people are not a monolith. I think we need to be putting together focus groups and think tanks of marginalized groups to vet and read things because every year there’s something. So I get why they gatekeep because every year there’s something. A white person, you know, writing about the African-American experience and getting it completely wrong, those types of things happen every year.

C: Right.

K: And I think that- I don’t know, I just think that we can do better. I just do. I think there’s a better way to gatekeep.

C: I think so, too, and I mean, it’s a little bit of a selfish viewpoint because I want my books to, you know, get published and be best sellers.

K: Yeah. 

C: I think so too because I feel like if somebody who is not disabled is writing… about disabled people in a way that it’s accurate and not sensationalized, then I don’t mind. I would much rather than read that than somebody who is disabled writing in a stereotypical way. 

K: Mmm. Trying to write to please able-bodied people.

C: Yeah.

K: And not being authentic.

C: Yeah.

K: My thing, too, is I often say this, and I honestly think it, is… that I find people who look like me are more likely to listen to me. 

C: Mhmm.

K: And, if you can get an ally in a white dude, man, load ‘em up with good information. This is what I’ve done. I’ve loaded you up with good information and how to talk to people when they say racist and biased stuff, and how to call them on that and be part of the solution.

C: Right.

K: And I feel like we need to be showing people that. So, Mario Van Peeble said something that stuck with me back in the 80s, he came out with a western movie, and it was all black characters.

C: Mhmm.

K: And it was really popular. And he came out and he said “look, Hollywood is a racist town. The only color they respect is green.” And that was so profound for me. That stuck with me, and that’s why I’m so passionate about… patronizing black artists and black movies and black-owned businesses. And keeping the black dollar in the black community and talking about black money. Because black money is powerful. Money’s powerful. And when we unite as a group and support something, it’s a powerful thing. It’s a world-wide sensation and phenomenon. So, yes, I did all the Big Mama’s Houses, and I did all the Madeas even though they weren’t my favorite. And I feel like Madea is the, the dress that, you know, Tyler Perry Studio was built on.

C: Mhmm.

K: You know, those dollars and those monies, and his smart investments and all of that. So, in that same way, we need these stories out here, and first we have to get somebody telling them. And showing, leading the way and showing that “hey, these stories sell” because I want to read books with disabled characters. That are telling a true disabled story.

C: Right.

K: And being honest about what it means to live with disability. It is a different type of life. There are unique struggles.

C: Well, and I think there are a lot of books out there about disability written by disabled people, but the narrative that, at least right now, is popular is the… the trauma that leads to disability, that then leads to overcoming.

K: Yes.

C: And while that’s a valid narrative, and I have this conversation a lot in writing groups. I’m not the only one having it. That it’s not any one particular book that is a problem. It’s the overwhelming flood of them. Like, literature that’s on the bestseller list is overwhelmingly white. And it’s not that any one particular book is the problem. 

K: Yeah.

C: It’s the whole collective of it.

K: Yeah. We absolutely need characters from marginalized groups. 

C: Right.

K: And I love the own-voices, that my first vote would absolutely be having a marginalized character written by a marginalized author.

C: Mhmm.

K: Absolutely. But part of the problem is that, to get those books seen, it takes so much money these days. It takes a lot of money to get your book noticed.

C: Yeah. And if you want to go the traditional publishing route, you have to get an author, and I think some 80% of- an agent rather- and I think something like 80% of agents are abled white women.

K: Yes.

C: And they come with their own ideas about what the experience is for other people. So if you query them with a book that’s, you know, from your own honest perspective, but it doesn’t match their expectation, which for some agents, not all, some are well-informed, but for some agents is based on what they’ve seen in movies. 

K: Yeah.

C: So, if they went and saw “The Help”, then they’re like “this is what the African-American experience was like at that time era” and so if you’re writing about that time era, and you’re writing about the African-American story, even if you are African-American, and it doesn’t match what “The Help” says, then you’re “doing it wrong.”

K: Yeah. And so, it’s- I don’t know. Gatekeepership is complicated. And, for me, I just want to be clear, I think it’s awesome and positive that we are caring about who tells our stories. I love the hashtag NothingAboutUsWithoutUs – I rock that all day. I do think we also have to allow some other people to talk with us about our experience and just raise the bar. And I know that’s probably going to be an unpopular opinion, and I’m sorry if I’m hurting anybody with that opinion. 

C: Well, and there’s a tension between gatekeeping and discoverability. Because if you don’t have any gatekeeping, then everybody just publishes their own book, which you can go on Amazon and just publish your own books. But the more people who do that, the harder is it so discover the story, so the gatekeeping is supposed to function as like selecting the best stories.

K: Yes.

C: And sometimes that works really well and sometimes that doesn’t. And we’re starting to see, especially in science fiction and fantasy, that, you know, the marginalized people are starting to win major awards. In, what, the 2016/17/18, N.K. Jemisin won the Hugo award. Each of the three books in a trilogy she wrote. That was awesome. And it’s the Broken Earth Trilogy, which I love. Great books. And you know, we’re starting to see that more and more. It’s still… a tricky thing. It is still the case that… the majority of published authors are white women, but the majority of money doesn’t go to them except in certain genres.

K: Yeah. So, all of this is really complex, and not going to be solved in one podcast. And I guess I just kind of had this on my mind. You know, it’s just what I’ve been thinking about. And I’m super… anybody who has been listening to this cast for any time knows that I’m super passionate about you. And I just love you with everything that’s in me, and I just want you to succeed. I want you to be welcomed everywhere. I want you to be cherished everywhere. You know. Except for the Black Women In Japan group.

C: Yeah. Publication dates are tricky, so you can always go to our website, and if my books are published, when you hear this, then you can buy them. And if they’re not published yet when you hear this, you can wait.

K: You’re definitely going to have some books that aren’t published yet.

C: Absolutely.

K: Because you’re already starting a new book that’s not published yet and we didn’t even

C: Well people might not listen to this right when it comes out. That’s why I’m saying, like, go to our website to always be current on what’s published and what’s not.

K: Ah, yeah. And you’ve got tons of poetry. 

C: Yes.

K: Tons and tons of poetry that’s published. And so, I love being married to an author, and I love being married to a poet and an author of magical realism and all of the other genres that you write. I like that- I feel like everything you write is literary. And I really enjoy your writing. I love that I get to read pages as they’re hot off the press, as it were. Like, as soon as you’ve written them, before they’re even fully baked, I get to read them.

C: Yup. Typos and all.

K: (laughs) Yes, typos and all. Before editing. So, I love being on the inside track of that. And I just think you’re just so- such a beautiful and talented person and author. And that it’s just really been on my mind. I just want everybody to celebrate you, dagnabbit. (laughs) So that’s what’s been on my mind. That’s what I’ve been thinking about lately. It’s that everybody should celebrate the awesomeness that is Chad.

C: Okay, so listen for a future episode when I talk about why everybody should be Kisstopher’s client for therapy.

K: (laughs)

C: Every listener should contact her. And have her as their thera- no, I know you don’t have time for that.

K: No, ain’t nobody got time for that. Not to be mean. I welcome new clients, but

C: I know your schedule could not accommodate all of our listeners.

K: No. I feel like every time I look at my calendar “okay, I’ve got a few more openings” but I really like the pace and turnover of it, so I have a really comfortable practice. Um, yeah. But if you’re interested in me as a therapist, absolutely, you know, drop me an email, and we can talk about it. But, that’s, that’s not our main thing on this podcast.

C: No, it’s not.

K: I’m not out here trolling for clients. But I do welcome anybody who thinks they that I can help them, them reaching out. And I’ll always at least write a return email. No guarantee that I can work with them, though. And I’m in Japan.

C: Yes you are.

K: I’m in Nagoya, Japan, baby. So, yeah. If you’re in the NGO, then absolutely hit me up. But… yeah. Although I do have clients all over the world.

C: Yes.

K: And I’m super proud of that because I have clients, currently, I have clients, one two, that are living in four different countries right now and still working with me.

C: Yes.

K: I think that’s so cool. I love this modern era.

C: It is a modern era.

K: Yeah. The world is global. Including me.

C: So, publishing, update yourself. It’s a modern era.

K: (laughs) Yes. Thanks. Buh-bye.

C: Bye-bye.