K: So, lately I’ve been thinking about how many times I’ve had to… in my lifetime, figure out what a fulfilling life would be. And how, in Japan… that was completely dominated by how to be fulfilled but also fulfill my visa. And I feel really lucky that I don’t have – and this is not disparaging anybody’s degree – but that I didn’t come to Japan with a photography degree. That I came to Japan with a degree that I could do something that was fulfilling to me. Does that make sense?

C: Yeah. You’re saying you’ve had a lot of midlife crises.

K: (laughs) Yes. I’ve had a lot of midlife.

C: And you’ve had to fit your midlife crises around visa.

K: Yes, I did. Yes, I did. So, I – I don’t know, I feel like you’ve reinvented yourself quite a few times in Japan as well. I feel like there’s been more incarnations of you here… than there ha – than there were in the United States. I feel like our life was really set, stable, and the same. Which… the sameness of what was going on in the United States made you miserable. You hated being there. And that sort of… consumed us. And I think my misunderstanding – like we talked about last week how you love to – love education and love continuing education. I don’t feel like we really knew each other. I don’t know.

C: I think there are a lot more options now than there were back then.

K: Yeah absolutely.

C: Because back then there was a company called Brain Bench, and you’d pay 20 bucks and take a test, and they’d give you a shiny certificate, but nobody really cared about them.

K: Yeah.

C: Japan cared about them; when we first immigrated, they were like, “oh, you are certified.”

K: No. Japan cared about your patents.

C: Yeah. They cared about those, too.

K: Yeah.

C: But I feel like… I feel like, for both of us, we’ve had a lot of different jobs, but besides… survival jobs… for each of us, we’ve had a common thread going throughout the jobs. Like, all of your jobs have been helping people with their mental health.

K: Yes.

C: And all of

K: Or learning.

C: Or learning. Which I think feeds into

K: Overcoming learning disabilities.

C: Yeah. Learning how to compensate for them, learning how to learn despite them. Learning how to deal with the school being intransigent. All of that. And I feel like all of mine have dealt with… data stuff in one way or another.

K: I feel like all of yours have been… king of the mountain.

C: That’s been the objective.

K: (laughs)

C: But I think the common theme has been information and data. Because going back to my patent

K: In terms of the field.

C: Yes. In terms of the field. Like, even going back to my patent, it was about how to deal with too much information all at once.

K: Yes.

C: And networking issues and things. You could look it up if you really care. You, the listener, not you, Kisstopher.

K: Yeah. (laughs) I don’t need to look it up, baby, I lived it.

C: Exactly.

K: Okay? I’m living it.

C: Exactly.

K: Just wallowing in all the juicy wonderfulness that is your mind.

C: But I think, living in the Bay Area, I was a programmer once, and therefore

K: You lived in the South – no, you lived in the proper Bay Area of Northern California and then moved to the South Bay.

C: Yes.

K: Because not everybody’s going to be like – “Bay Area” is so general, babe.

C: Okay, living in the San Franci-

K: If you’re not from California

C: Living in Silicon Valley. Living in the San Francisco, San Jose

K: So, Silicon Valley is the South Bay.

C: Okay.

K: I’m such a Californian. This is just like so… if you meet a Norther- I think people in LA are like this, too, because they’re like, “no. That’s in Ceno.” That’s different than, you know.

C: Okay. So, in Northern California, the farthest north that I worked was in Marin.

K: Yeah.

C: And in Northern California, the farthest south that I worked was Campbell.

K: Yeah.

C: So, I worked up and down the bay.

K: North Bay, South Bay.

C: Yes.

K: And I don’t know why, like, Campbell and Santa Clara county are considered the South Bay. They are nowhere near the bay.

C: No, they’re not.

K: They’re not near any water whatsoever.

C: And I went to school at Berkeley. Is that East Bay?

K: Yeah.

C: Okay. That’s what I thought because of the subways, but subways can be misleading about where the stations are.

K: Yeah. And I don’t know why. So, like, Berkeley’s a little bit closer, I guess. Like, I mean, if you were driving there, you’d drive along the coast to get there.

C: Right.

K: But like the South Bay, it is a desert. There is no water. There’s a bunch of man-made lakes and reservoirs and such, but there’s no ocean.

C: You’ve got to keep going down to Santa Cruz to get to the ocean.

K: Yeah. So, I always feel like… I don’t know. I always feel like Santa Clara county just kind of co-opted Santa Cruz county, and so we’re South Bay.

C: yeah. Absolutely. They did.

K: And I felt like maybe “South Bay” is short for “south of the bay.”

C: I think it might be.

K: Or south from the bay?

C: Might be.

K: I don’t know. Hey, fellow Californians, hit is up. Let us know. I don’t know. I’m out of the loop these days.

(laughter)

K: I’ve been gone for almost 15 years. I don’t know what’s what.

C: Yeah.

K: What’s good, Hollywood?

C: But the point of that

K: Is there a point?

C: Yes, there is a point.

K: (laughs)

C: It’s that in Silicon Valley, once you’ve had the title of programmer or software engineer

K: Yeah.

C: That is always your title.

K: Yes.

C: Like, you could advance. You could become senior software engineer. You could advance into management, but you’re basically always in software engineering because any other place is going to assume that you will just go get a software engineering job.

K: Yeah.

C: And that you’re only taking them out of pity because they can’t pay nearly as much.

K: Yeah. And so, that was really important – so, your jobs – it’s interesting to me that your jobs in Japan… while data-related have not been programming.

C: Right.

K: And I think that’s been a really great switch because programming does something… to you.

C: Yeah.

K: I don’t know what it is about programming, but when you go into that space in your mind, it increases the amount of seizures you have. So, one of the boundaries I set was even though we could make a lot of money if you were programming, it wasn’t worth your health to me.

C: Yeah.

K: And I was like that – no programming.

C: In California, my job titles were software engineer, then software engineer, then software engineer, then software engineer.

K: Yeah.

C: And since moving to Japan, it’s been a mishmash. Quite a variety.

K: English teacher, math teacher, PHD candidate…

C: Yeah. Business owner.

K: Business owner. Operations manager.

C: Post-doctoral researcher. Professor.

K: Yeah.

C: Editor. Senior Editor. Operations manager. Data engineer and data manager.

K: And author. Let’s not forget.

C: But that hasn’t been a job title. That’s a thing I do.

K: Yeah. You are an – you are a published author.

C: Yes.

K: Go buy his book. Not My Ruckus. Not for the faint of heart.

C: (laughs)

K: It’ll break your heart in all the best ways.

C: (laughs)

K: I’m shameless.

C: Yeah. I appreciate that.

K: The Music Notes know that I am shameless. Hashtag Proud Wife. I don’t care.

C: Yes.

K: I want your book to have total world domination. So, part of my fulfillment is promoting your book. That really makes me feel good to promote your book. Because early on in our marriage, I told you I want to be an author’s wife.

C: Yes, you did.

K: And now I am an author’s wife.

C: So, during the – like, I was working as a programmer here in Japan remotely for somebody who had gotten a bunch of money to duplicate the Adobe Flash browser.

K: Yeah.

C: In a project called Nash. Which Flash doesn’t even exist anymore – at least, if you follow the recommendations.

K: But how did that affect your fulfillment?

C: I felt really

K: To always be on this – on this path.

C: So, I felt really unfulfilled until I got schooling. And… so, I went my undergraduate in California. And then I did my master’s and PHD here in Japan.

K: Yeah.

C: I did my master’s remotely and my PHD in person. And the more education that I got – and we talked about this the last episode: how my love for certification.

K: Yeah.

C: But the more education I got, the more I felt like I could just… solve things.

K: Mhm.

C: Rather than grind on things. Because programming, as a job, felt very much like grinding on things for me. There was always something to do. Something specific that didn’t take a lot of thought for me but took a lot of concentration.

K: So, if somebody was going to come to Japan and try to find fulfillment, my advice would be is that needs to start at your undergraduate level. And I would really advise people to get their master’s before coming to Japan. Is something I would strongly advise if they can’t come on a spousal visa. And I so hope that… same-sex partnership is legalized very soon.

C: Yeah.

K: It’s been – there’s some rulings going on so that everyone can enjoy the spousal visa. Love is love.

C: The supreme court ruled in a case originating from Shibuya that Shibuya city, which recognizes domestic partnerships

K: Yeah.

C: Would be in violation of the constitution did they not recognize domestic partnerships and even marriages.

K: Yeah.

C: So, but it’s not like the U.S. where there’s stare decisis. So, it doesn’t automatically legalize same-sex marriage everywhere. That will still take years.

K: But it gets it moving.

C: It gets it moving.

K: It gets it moving.

C: Yeah. My advice to anybody wanting to come to Japan to be fulfilled is don’t.

K: Really?

C: Yeah.

K: Just a hard don’t.

C: Just a hard don’t. I think that… I enjoy living in Japan, but… most of the people I meet here are not very fulfilled.

K: Yeah, that’s true.

C: And what they… haven’t planned for – what’s surprising to them – is how low salaries are.

K: Mmm. Yeah.

C: How much of your life you will spend working, and how actively jobs discourage fulfillment.

K: Yes. That is always a big shock to everyone. Like, even… the friend that you’ve had for 20 years that spent like 15 years of their life trying to get here.

C: Now lives here.

K: Now that they’re here… they’re just like, “what?”

C: “Why am I working so much?” Yeah.

K: Yeah. “This is not what I wanted at all.”

C: So, I feel like if you are really into anime or karate or, or… you know, whatever – flower arranging. And you want to do the traditional Japanese of it. Go somewhere outside of Japan that has a large Japanese population.

K: Well, and everywhere in the United States has a Japan Town. Almost every state has a Japan Town.

C: Yeah. And Australia has a lot of Japanese people as well because of its proximity. Hawaii has a huge number of Japanese people.

K: I know that Melbourne has Japan Town. And so, Japan Town is… literally that. It has like Japanese stores. It has Japanese speakers, and it has Japanese nationals. And it’s when corporations – when Japanese corporations send their, um, their Japanese employees overseas. They build a Japan Town near that.

C: Right.

K: And so,

C: Some places like San Francisco – that’s the official name. They have a neighborhood named Japan Town.

K: Yeah, and in San Jose, there was Japan Town – when I took you to Japan Town in San Jose, you were so disappointed. You’re like, “it’s just cherry blossom trees and Japanese businesses.” And I was like,

C: “Yeah.”

K: “Yeah. That’s Japan Town.”

C: Yeah.

K: And you were like, “but this is not like San Francisco’s Japan Town.” And I’m like, “no because it’s San Jose.”

C: And a lot of San Francisco’s Japan Town is tourism for Japan Town.

K: Yeah. So, it was very heavily, like, imported Japanese Pokémon cards – at the time – this is gosh almost 20 years ago now.

C: Yeah.

K: So, it was a lot of imported Japanese video games and… the commodification of anime and such.

C: So, if you decide to come to Japan to fulfill – to find fulfillment despite the advice that I’m saying not to… then I think you have to just… be aware that you’re gonna spend a significant portion of your time working at a job to maintain a visa unless, as Kisstopher says, you can come on a spouse visa or a dependent visa. The difference is the spouse visa, the person that you’re married to has to be… a Japanese citizen or a permanent resident.

K: Yeah.

C: Dependent, they just have to have any working visa. Or even non-working.

K: So, I think there’s another path. And people are not gonna like to hear this, but if you… after moving to Japan, if you have 10,000 dollars left over after you move – and this was not our situation – but you can start a business for 10 grand, and you can get a visa if you’re working within… your – so, you have to look at the different visas that they have. If you find a visa status, you have – it’s really complicated. So, you can have a sole proprietorship. You have this visa, and then you have to show that you make enough money to support yourself. And you have to keep a record of all of your clients. Because I have a really good friend who’s here on… I forget what her visa is, but she runs a cupcake shop.

C: Mhm.

K: So, she makes cupcakes and, in her city, she’s like the cupcake queen. So, if you live in Japan, and you know who the cupcake queen is, I – you may or may not be right. I don’t know. I know several cupcake queens. But she’s made a whole… business for herself, and she wasn’t here on a spouse visa. Never been on a spouse visa. And did like – goes around and does workshops and stuff also on how to start – how to be here in Japan. Which is interesting because she’s doing them in Japan.

C: Yeah.

K: As a sole proprietorship because it’s not a visa that they advertise. Because you’re not getting a business visa. The business visa is 50,000 dollars.

C: Right. 5 million yen, specifically.

K: Yeah.

C: But about 50,000 dollars.

K: Yeah, so it’s… you come here, and you say, “I’m going to do this job.” And your doing of the job has to be something that is based on your culture. So, her cupcakes are – and her cakes – they’re from her culture. They’re specific cakes from her culture.

C: Yeah.

K: And so, she’s here on a cultural interest visa. And a cultural – I forget what it’s called now. It’s changed its name several times. But… a non-specified cultural activities – it was once called that. Or cultural exchange program. It’s a weird

C: Yeah. So, you can come here to study Japanese arts on that, and you can also do your own thing on that. Once you turn it into a business, usually you’ll switch to the… visa that everybody calls the English teacher visa, but it’s now consolidated a bunch of things. So, a specialist in humanities, international things…

K: Yeah.

C: And engineering also move to it because Japan was unable to find enough qualified engineers in Japan, and the requirements for them – nobody who met those requirements pre-2012 was moving here because you had to have 10 years of experience. And nobody was taking an 80% pay cut to move to Japan to be an engineer here.

K: Yeah. So, for me, if money is what gives you satisfaction and fulfillment and joy, Japan is not the country for that. It is a first-world country. It is a really wealthy country, but most people are middle-class, and… most people spend the majority of their time working. And it’s very regimented, and there are specific vacation… times of year that everyone takes vacations. And so, it’s 5 times as expensive.

C: Yeah.

K: And so, I’ve been really fortunate in that I have lived out of sync with Japan-time. Because I’m my own employer, so I – and when I was teaching English, I didn’t teach at… a standard English school called an “eikaiwa”, I did traveling. So, my schedule has always been out of sync, and that’s something I’ve always enjoyed.

C: Yeah.

K: Is I’ve always wanted Sundays and Mondays off. And that goes back to all of my friends – like my best friend being a hairdresser and having Sundays and Mondays off. And also being in the entertainment industry, you work Saturdays.

C: Yes.

K: And… so, when I was exotic dancing, I worked – you have – like, Saturday’s a popping day. Good money day.

C: Yeah, that was the last day that you were still working.

K: Yeah. So… I’ve always had Sundays and Mondays off. And even in my therapist practice, I have Sundays and Mondays off. In my therapy practice, it’s because you have to be open at least one weekend day. And so, it just makes sense, for me, I prefer to have days off that are together. I hate split days off.

C: Yeah.

K: Never, ever like doing that.

C: I don’t know that – I don’t know that anybody really likes that. But I think

K: I know some people that are like really into having split days off.

C: I don’t know that anybody normal really likes that.

K: No I

C: (laughs)

K: No, seriously. I know people that are like into it.

C: That’s why I added normal. They are strange for liking that.

K: No because they feel like they have one day that they can get all their business done.

C: Mhm.

K: And then they have another day that they can just really luxuriate, and it really breaks up their weekday – their work week for them.

C: Yeah, I guess I could see that.

K: Yeah. Because they’re never working more than 3 consecutive days in a row.

C: Yeah. So, I think… the money thing is a little bit tricky because it is possible to make good money in Japan.

K: Really?

C: Really, but it takes a long time.

K: I mean, I make okay money. I’m doing okay, but I have my own business.

C: Right.

K: So, I don’t know if like working for a Japanese company, there’s a way to make good money. Because everyone’s always surprised at how much money they can’t save. That’s the one thing (laughs) my clients and friends talk about the most is that they can’t save money in Japan.

C: So, it takes a long time, and you have to be really qualified.

K: To make good money?

C: To make good money. And then you don’t have a good schedule.

K: Yeah.

C: So, you know that when I was looking for work, I was talking to a lot of recruiters. So, there would be jobs that would say, “the upper end of this is the 0.1% of the money in Japan.”

K: Yes.

C: And they’d be like, “okay.” It was about 250,000 dollars. They said, “to get that 250,000 dollars, you basically have to be a Nobel prize winner.”

K: Yes.

C: “They put that out there to attract applicants. Nobody gets that.”

K: Yeah.

C: “But, there are jobs out there that are in the 150,000 and up range.”

K: Yeah.

C: “But they require 70 hours a week.”

K: Yeah.

C: For 51 weeks a year.

K: And to be – nowadays, even to be a professor or work for a board of education, they’re doing six-day work weeks.

C: Yeah. That’s what I’m saying 70 hours a week.

K: Yeah

C: You’re not… yeah. So, it’s just…

K: So, everyone I know that works at a school – whether it be an international school or for the board of education at a public school or even at universities, they have to do at least… the fewest Saturdays I’ve heard of is two Saturdays a month. But some are going all the way to 4 hours a day on Saturday.

C: Yeah.

K: Like, every week. And so, you’re working 6 days a week, and they’re not giving any sort of time exchange for that. Which I think is unfair, but that’s the way the industry is going, so

C: And that’s the way the law says that you have to have an average of one day off per week.

K: Yeah.

C: And that your union can agree to waive those rules. So, you don’t get paid overtime, necessarily, if your union has agreed that you’re going to do free overtime. And comparing to Malaysia, the same job – the salary in Malaysia’s about triple.

K: Yeah.

C: And none of this applies

K: Malaysia’s where you want to go for the money.

C: And none of this applies

K: Malaysia’s fat cash.

C: Yeah. And none of this applies if you’re coming over here for 2 or 3 years on a job assignment from your home company. From your home country.

K: But then that’s a tricky one, too, because you miss out on promotions.

C: Yes.

K: And they don’t tell people that. And I always tell people when they come over here, and they’re thinking about extending because they’re really enjoying their growth, and they’re really enjoying Japan. I tell them, “you know, any changes in the company – you are going to back in at the same level you left.”

C: Right.

K: So, a lot of companies don’t talk about that and say, “oh, it’ll fast track you for promotions” this that and the other. And if you think about everyone who’s doing foreign assignments, there’s no way there’s that many promotions in the company.

C: Right.

K: Especially if the company’s downsizing. So, the reason I’m talking about work when I’m talking about fulfillment is because I am not fulfilled by work. Like, my work is fulfilling, but being in Japan fulfills me in a way that being in the United States didn’t. Because I feel like I understand Japan better when it comes to morality than I understood the United States. And I think, for me, it is so fulfilling for me as an atheist to not be in a Christian country.

C: Yeah.

K: And I think that… people who are Christian or agnostic, they don’t really get how… oppressive… the constant religiosity being around me all of the time and having to be open to that and not being able to have a safe space to discuss the fact that I’m an atheist, and having people tell me, “then you have no morals” and really judging e negatively. And I had one person be like, “mm. You’re just mad because god killed your mom.” And I’m like, “you don’t know me at all.”

(laughter)

K: Like,

C: If you really thought that, you’d be like, “thank you, god.”

K: (laughs)

C: “I believe you are kind and merciful.”

K: Yeah. Like, it was – it was time for the old gal to go.

C: So, I think it’s interesting because religion plays a larger part in Japanese official life than it does in the U.S. because there’s a lot of Shinto ceremonies and things that are official government things.

K: But Shintoism is so sexist

C: Yes.

K: That, because I was assigned female at birth, that I don’t – I can’t take part in any of it. So, like

C: Right.

K: When it comes to Shintoism, the deepest it’s ever gotten is on… some time in January, going to the shrine, clapping, doing a bow, and getting a fortune. And that was like the whole of my Shinto existence because most of the shrine, I couldn’t go into.

C: Right.

K: I can’t walk around because, in Shintoism, if women cross a certain threshold, it will anger the gods.

C: Yeah, they’d have to burn the whole temple.

K: Yeah.

C: They don’t really burn the temple, but

K: (laughs)

C: But I find it

K: They have to like, de- it’s a whole thing. Look up Shintoism. So, for me, I feel really cool that I get a pass on that. And then.

C: Well, I think the other thing is that a lot of people in Japan are Shinto or Buddhist or both.

K: Yeah.

C: but there are a lot of

K: But there are also Catholics, Christians, and Muslims. And Jews.

C: Yeah. But there’s also a lot of atheist Buddhist traditions.

K: Yeah.

C: And Shintoism is ancestor worship, and the attitude is kind of like, “if you’re not Japanese, then why would you be Shinto?”

K: Yeah.

C: Which is an attitude that we encountered from some of our Hindu friends in the U.S.

K: Yeah.

C: We haven’t been to India. Can’t speak to the situation there. But in the U.S., their attitude was… well, Hinduism is culturally South Asian, and you are not South Asian. So, why would you be Hindu?

K: Well, the one girlfriend that we talked that was – that, like, my best Judy at the time. She said, “there are so many gods. And it is so much work. Why would you take this upon yourself? Because you would be forgiven for not… knowing.”

C: Yeah.

K: And I thought that was so cool because… y’all have heard me say it before on the podcast. Like, don’t tell me about Jesus if telling me about Jesus is going to make me go to hell if I don’t believe.

C: (laughs)

K: Like, shush.

C: Yes.

K: Just let me be ignorant and go to heaven. Like, what’s your problem? Why are you doing this? So aggressive. So, being here – what I find to be so fulfilling is how much people don’t care about who I am.

C: Yeah.

K: Like, in my social life – in my business life people care a lot – but in my social life, they just don’t care. Like, they don’t care about – religion never comes up.

C: Right.

K: Gender never comes up. Pronouns… not an issue. They – I’ve never had anyone refer to me using a pronoun.

C: Well, it’s unnatural in Japanese. You have to work at it to do it in Japanese.

K: And then it’s just

C: I think we’ve mentioned this before

K: If you don’t know that person’s name

C: Yeah. And well, if you don’t know that person’s name, you don’t refer to them by gender. It’s just “ano kata” or “ano hito.”

K: Yeah.

C: But because “he” is the same word as “boyfriend” and “she” is the same word as “girlfriend”

K: Yeah.

C: They had to invent them to deal with… like, basically languages that are gendered.

K: Yeah.

C: Because, in Japanese, it’s irrelevant. Which is bizarre with how obsessed Shintoism is with it.

K: Right? It’s so – it’s, just… I like the dichotomy of that is it’s completely misogynistic, but for me, I live outside of that misogyny.

C: Yeah.

K: Being a foreigner. And so, I don’t think that I would enjoy… being in Japan if I were Japanese.

C: Yeah. That seems fair. A lot of Japanese people just want to leave.

K: Yeah. And so, I that, for me, being American – being in America – all of those expectations that were on me… the heaviest one of all was “be happy.”

C: Mm. Yeah.

K: I really didn’t like the expectation that I would be happy. And in Japan, there’s no expectation that I’ll be happy. There’s no expectation that anyone will be happy. And there – there isn’t

C: Yeah. The demand is “don’t ruin society.”

K: Yes. And so, for me, I don’t do any of the things that they consider ruining society. It’s just not in my nature to do. So… I just – I don’t know. It just fits. And I just feel… comforted. And I feel safe, even though I’ve had some really unsafe things happen here. I feel safer in terms of my identity.

C: Yeah.

K: And so, I feel more fulfilled as a person. I feel like I’ve been able to blossom, and also being the last of 14 children… and having the responsibility of taking care – and being the one that was stable. The pressure of that being gone when I moved to Japan was so wonderful for me. So, no longer being responsible for my father who was very abusive and my stepmother who was very abusive. I couldn’t escape that dynamic completely in the United States. I kind of did with my – with my dad and stepmom, but then I had my grandfather. So, I was always responsible for an extended family member.

C: Yeah. We moved to Japan about a year after your grandfather died.

K: Yeah.

C: And they were related. We were not moving until that happened.

K: And he was really against me living in Japan because he was just extremely racist. And… not proud of that. Not proud of

C: What? You have racist family?

K: (laughs)

C: I’m glad that I don’t have racist family.

K: Right? Well, I have klan members and then I have – like, both sides of my family are just completely racist. And, so for me… it was a great escape.

C: Yeah.

K: And if you want to… be far away from everything else in the world, Japan is a great place to do it.

C: Yeah, so I think if you come here looking for fulfillment because you think Japan has something that it will provide to you.

K: It adds distance.

C: Yeah. I think that’s the one thing that it consistently has.

K: Because I tell a lot of people that I don’t do stuff because I live in Japan. And they believe it.

C: Yeah. Because most of the people I know who… are here

K: (laughs) Anybody who’s listening to the podcast are gonna be like, “okay. Is that really” – nobody who listens to the podcast because, like, none of my family listens to the podcast.

C: Right.

K: Just to sum up my family. None of them listened to the podcast. All of them are aware of it.

C: See, and I think my family none of them listen, but none of them are aware of it.

C: No, that’s not true. You have one relative that used to listen.

C: Okay.

K: But they don’t listen anymore.

C: Okay. Well, then good, I guess.

K: You had that aunt and uncle that was here in Japan who never came to visit us.

C: Oh yeah. Yeah.

K: And they listened to a couple episodes and decided it wasn’t for them.

C: Yeah.

K: (laughs)

C: It’s not a very Mormon show.

K: Yeah. And so, you know, and we talked about how when your brother came, he didn’t visit us, so…

C: Yeah.

K: Yeah. Because we wouldn’t pay 400 bucks to go visit him. So…

C: Yeah. “Hey, I’m in Japan, come to Tokyo.” Like,

K: Yeah. But we’re not trying to drag our family. So – but you were saying that if you come to Japan thinking Japan has something for you. What do you mean by that?

C: If you come to Japan thinking “I’m going to be fulfilled by learning to do flower arranging.” Or “I’m going to be fulfilled by traveling to temples.” Or “I’m going to be fulfilled by becoming a Buddhist monk.”

K: Mm.

C: It’s probably not going to work out the way that you hope.

K: Yeah.

C: And most people who leave Japan find that their life was essentially put on pause, but they got older.

K: Yeah.

C: And they have no verifiable work history. And that’s the big thing when people go back, and they’re like, “Wait a minute, I didn’t save any money, and my career was interrupted because nobody recognizes the type of English teaching as teaching outside of Japan.

K: So, see, that’s not – that’s something I want everyone who’s in Japan to know. I tried to proselytize and spread this around. English as a second language. English as an additional language. You can put that into google, and in every single country there is a program where you can go and teach English as an additional language. And your Japanese English will be valued by that company.

C: Yes. Absolutely. But what you can’t do is you can’t go back and say, “I was a teacher” and have them take that as teaching experience unless you are specifically looking at second or additional language teaching.

K: Yeah. You can’t just be a generalized – unless you did an accreditation program and worked at an international school.

C: That’s a different thing where… your – there’s a whole circuit for international schoolteachers and things.

K: So, something that I think is really cool that’s happened to me, that I’ve seen happen, is… six different clients of mine left Japan. And I had advised them to leave.

C: Yeah.

K: And so, it’s a tricky thing as a therapist when you’re like, “hey. I don’t think Japan is working out for you. I think you’ll be happy somewhere else.” And all of them are thriving and a couple of them have started businesses. A couple of them have gone into politics. And a couple of them are, like, doing their dream job.

C: Right.

K: And are so happy and climbing the ladder in their company. And really fulfilled. And the time that they had in Japan made them appreciate their country of origin.

C: Yeah. It’s kind of like an anti-Eat Pray Love.

K: (laughs)

C: It’s work, drink, work. And then you’re like “wait a minute. I don’t want a drink.”

K: (laughs)

C: “Wait a minute. The only thing I’m doing is working. Maybe I should have gratitude for what I have in my home country.”

K: Yeah.

C:  And people who go back under those conditions. I think have found themselves. And I’m not sure because I haven’t lived the alternative – the alternate lifetime where we didn’t move to Japan. How much of this is just… you know, since moving to Japan, I’ve gotten

K: No, we have been looking at the United Sates. We have been watching the U.S. And there has never been a point in time when it would have been better for me to be in the United States.

C: Yeah.

K: In the entire time we have been here, there has never been a single year where it would have been better for me to be in the United States.

C: No. Nor for me.

K: And we drove cross-country once we went – we went back to the United States once and drove cross-country because… I was saying goodbye to the U.S.

C: Yeah.

K: And there was – there are places that are cool, and there are amazing people, but it just wasn’t home.

C: Yeah.

K: It just wasn’t home.

C: And I feel like, for me, a lot of the fulfillment is that I’m an extrovert, but I’m not a very talkative extrovert.

K: (laughs)

C: I’m like an extrovert without words.

K: (laughs) The Music Notes know that sometimes, like – you’re super talkative today, so I’m like super happy about it. But there are some episodes where I’m like, ugh. Ahh. Ah.

C: I know you’re like, “do I have to pull teeth?” And I’m like, “all my teeth are fake. We’ve talked about this before.”

K: (laughs)

C: Every single one of them, fake.

K: There are times we’re going to record, and I’m like, “can you talk today?”

C: Yes.

K: You’re like, “sure. I’m down to record whenever.” And sometimes, it’s just me – when I listen back to it, it feels like it’s just me talking or interviewing you.

C: It’d be like, “can you talk today?” “Yes.” “Can you say more than one word?” “Yes.” “Can you say more than one word right now?” “Yes. I can.”

(laughter)

K: It’s very much that. (laughs)

C: “Dammit. This is not gonna be fun.”

K: And sometimes, I don’t notice it until like we’re into the episode, and so there are days that I’m like, “no. Mnmn.”

C: (laughs)

K: “Nope. I’m not doing it. Can’t do it.” So, I know the Music Notes can stand the sound of my voice because they hear it a lot.

C: So, I’m autistic, which should not be a surprise to anybody who’s listened to more than one episode.

K: (laughs)

C: But I’m also extremely extroverted, and I like being around other people.

K: Yeah.

C: And I like other people. Corona has been hard because I haven’t been able to ride public transit, which is one of my favorite ways to spend time with people.

K: Yeah.

C: But…

K: Because you’re a social butterfly.

C: Yeah. And Japan makes that… easy to be a social butterfly without having to say a lot.

K: Yeah, they do.

C: In the U.S., if you don’t say a lot, people start grilling you. Like, “what do you do?” “What do you mean?” “For work.” “Okay. I don’t want to talk about work.” “Okay. What are your main anxieties?” Like, “where’d that come from?” “We’ve got to talk about something.”

K: (laughs) I find that, when I’m talking with Japanese nationals, I have the most… some of the most interesting conversations. Like, I remember going out, and I was just hanging out, and I got in a conversation with someone on the train about fruit and produce.

C: Mhm.

K: And I’m really passionate about locally grown produce.

C: Yeah.

K: And so, the person was like really amazed that I know about the farmer’s market in Japan in Nagoya, in my city, and I knew all about these really cool places to get fruit and vegetables that were all locally grown and locally sourced. And I knew the seasons, and when things were coming into… like, coming into harvest – or season

C: Right.

K: And talking about the different ways to cook it. It was really fascinating. We were on the train together for like 2 and a half hours, and we were talking about different recipes and stuff for 2 and a half hours, and it was just really… amazing, fulfilling, random conversation. And the person ended up giving me, like, a pen that they had crocheted. And I don’t know, it just felt like this amazing connection that just lasted for that train ride. We didn’t exchange phone numbers.

C: Right.

K: We didn’t exchange names. And it was just an awesome experience. I’ve done that in the United States, but it was also cigarette-based.

C: Mm.

K: And so, I feel like I get to live that smoker’s lifestyle without smoking.

C: see, and I think that might be a transit thing. Because I’ve had that experience. I had, when I was going to Berkeley I would ride the Bart from Freemont up to Berkeley every day.

K: Yeah.

C: Every once in a while, I think like two times in the two years I was at Berkeley, I had a conversation with somebody who was in a close major, and we’d just talk about school and things. And here… the one that comes to mind is I was carrying and reading a Japanese copy of The Little Prince.

K: Yeah.

C: And this guy was like, “oh, that’s my favorite novel. Have you read it before?” And we talked about it. He was like, “have you been to The Little Prince museum?” And at the time, I had not, so I was like, “no. I have not.”

K: And now you have been.

C: Now I have been, yes. But yeah.

K: And they sell bomb ass candy there. So, if you come to Japan, and you go to Hakone

C: (laughs)

K: And you go to The Little Prince museum, go into the gift shop and get hard candies. They are so good. So, so good.

C: (laughs)

K: Yum. Just yummy yum, yum. (laughs)

C: With that endorsement, who would not?

K: Right? And if you stay at the Hakone Prince Hotel, get the candies. I like the lemon ones better than the orange ones.

C: Yeah. So, the kata-ura lemon drops.

K: Yeah. And they are so good. So yummy. So tasty. I have a sweet tooth.

C: But they’re a regional specialty.

K: Yeah.

C: Made from the fruits that are grown there.

K: Yeah.

C: We talked about regional specialties before, but Japan has a lot of them.

K: I haven’t done the hundred-year-old egg. I’m not doing that. It sounds gross.

C: I feel like that’s… one of those things that is like the frozen toe in Canada. That’s in one specific bar. I feel like it’s one of those things that they spring on tourists. Like, not necessarily international tourists. Just… “let me have you eat this gross thing, and I’m going to tell you it’s a cultural experience, and we’re going to laugh at you afterward.”

K: Really? (laughs)

C: Yeah, really.

K: So, for me, I love traveling around Japan. But I tell everybody, you can only see so many shrines. You can only see so many cherry blossoms.

C: Yeah.

K: You know, like today we were – I left because I had an appointment to go to. And Rasta was driving me around, and… we saw a bunch of cherry blossoms because they’re everywhere. And when you

C: Yeah. It’s almost completely green, so they’re at my favorite point, right now when we’re recording this where… the leaves still have – the branches still have blossoms on them, but they also have leaves.

K: Yeah.

C: Because with the cherries, the blossoms come first with no leaves, and that’s usually considered the prime time to view it because you’re only seeing the blossoms. People are like, “oh, see them before the leaves come in”, but I like them when the leaves are partly in.

K: Well, and I like, too, that we have the peach and the cherry.

C: Yeah.

K: So, we have like – and we have several different varieties of cherry blossoms in Nagoya that are really gorgeous. And just driving around today, they’re everywhere, so I don’t feel the need to go to the park and have a picnic to sit underneath the cherry blossoms.

C: Well, and the microclimates.

K: Yeah. Nagoya has a lot of – I think all of Japan has a lot of microclimates.

C: Because I – I know of one street corner where… one direction of the blossom – like, the east-west street blossomed two weeks before the north-south street did.

K: Yeah, and that’s how it is over at my office.

C: Yeah.

K: Which I haven’t been to in a year. And I feel bad. Rasta’s been to it, but I feel like maybe I should go check on it. I don’t know. I don’t know.

C: Rasta’s checked on it. You know it’s fine.

K: Yeah. So, for me, finding fulfillment in Japan is about finding fulfillment in you.

C: Yes.

K: And then if Japan is your place… then think about the daily living. Don’t think about… the adventure. Because it’s not an adventure. You have to come here, and you have to live. You don’t get – I don’t get to go to Hakone every weekend. I don’t get to go to Takayama every weekend – we don’t get to travel every week.

C: Right.

K: And if you’re stuck in that cycle… with having it – whether you’re stuck in that international school cycle or public-school cycle or traditional Japanese holiday cycle, all of those are really expensive times to travel. And it’s not cheap. Travel is not cheap in Japan. And life in Japan is not cheap. So, you don’t – you can’t come here, live on the cheap, and save a bunch of money. It just isn’t possible.

C: Yeah.

K: And I think it used to be. But it’s not anymore.

C: Yeah, I do think it used to be. And I think there used to be a lot more deference given to… non-Japanese people in terms of… salary and things.

K: Yeah.

C: And, as Japan has built its institutional capacity, the gap between… a Japanese salary and an ex-pat salary has really narrowed.

K: Yeah. So, basically, if you want to find fulfillment in Japan, think about if you would like to live your daily life in Japan. Think about the language, think about what you would wanna do for work, and… think about what would be your, your exit – your entrance and exit strategy. So, for us, we’re long-haulers. And this is where we want to live, and this is where we own our home, and this is where we plan on retiring. This is… our new home. So, the permanent residency… that was always a goal.

C: Yeah.

K: Because we know we wanna be here. What are your goals? What is it you – why are you coming to Japan? Like, why Japan? And it has to be something more than anime and, you know, the J-pop and all of that.

C: Yeah. It has to be something more than the exported culture.

K: Yeah.

C: Because if it is the exported culture, just enjoy the export.

K: Yeah. And so, I have a couple of clients who are into… the J-pop fan life.

C: Yeah.

K: And they really enjoy it. And they really enjoy being in Japan, but they have just a really… set life that they enjoy, and a group of friends that they enjoy it with. And it is daily life for them.

C: Yes.

K: And it does consume them. It is what they’re doing. That idol life is everything that their life is about. And the idol lifestyle with the boybands and girlbands that are idols, it’s a… different kind of lifestyle. It’s – and I have really great friends that are, you know, cosplayers. You can do that anywhere in the world.

C: Yes.

K: And if it’s going to be Japan, be ready for the reality of it.

C: Yeah.

K: And make sure that – I always feel like it’s, for me, it’s easier to do Japan with having a great partner.

C: Yeah. You will learn Japanese a lot slower than if you have a Japanese partner.

K: (laughs) Oh, y’all know my Japanese is busted, so…. So, yeah. If you’re looking for fulfillment, and we’re not sure Japan is it, we do not sell Japan ever on this podcast. We’re like, “Japan is hard.” (laughs)

C: Right? We love it here, but we know that

K: Yeah, we love it here.

C: We very intentionally moved here because of characteristics that it had that… were different than the U.S., so we knew that we were likely to love it, and we do.

K: Yeah. So, that’s it for this week. We hope that you enjoyed this – this foray into fulfillment, and we hope that you follow us on over to the take two. And that you’re a Patreon member. And that… you know, the take two now is just 2 bucks a month, and so we think that’s an awesome deal for the take twos. And if not, we’ll talk to you next week. Thank you for giving us your time.

C: Bye.

K: Bye.