K: So lately I’ve been thinking about how we make our money. Mostly because people have been asking how do we make our money? Like, what are we doing here in Japan?
C: Counterfeiting. (K laughs)
K: As if! I’m an okay artist, but my art skills aren’t that level. And where would we even find the paper that it’s on?
C: I’m not sure, and I think that’s the point.
K: Yeah.
C: The Japanese money is way harder to counterfeit than the old-style American money.
K: Yeah, so, what type of paper do they use? Because they have like–I think it’s really cool the Japanese money has a raised thing for braille, has a braille indicator of how much the bill is.
C: Yeah, it does. I think it’s just like a natural fiber and some plastics and I’m not quite sure everything that goes into it. It’s also got holographic images on it if you hold it up to light.
K: Yeah. So, we’re not counterfeiters.
C: No, no.
K: So now you know what we’re not doing to make our money.
C: Wink, wink.
K: So I think everybody pretty much knows that I’m a therapist by now, if they’ve listened to any of our other episodes. But I think what they might not be aware of is that I didn’t start out being a therapist. I think we both started out… well, the first time we came, I came as a student.
C: Yes.
K: And then, the second time we came, we came
C: with me as an English teacher.
K: Yeah. And then you taught English for a little bit before going back to school and then you went to Mei-dai and earned your PhD.
C: Yeah, so I taught English for a little bit, which is kind of a standard job for somebody college-educated who speaks English natively, which is one of the reasons that it took us so long to get to Japan is because I didn’t have a college degree before we came.
K: Mmhmm.
C: So I had to finish that before we could come on a work visa. And then we were on a business visa for a while because I used to be a programmer, so I was doing freelance programming.
K: Mmhmm.
C: And then we switched to a student visa.
K: Mmhmm.
C: And then we switched to a professor visa, because I was doing a post-doc and doing some teaching at the graduate level.
K: Mmhmm.
C: And then we switched to a humanities visa, which is the English-teaching visa but also includes “International Services”, so that’s when I was working as an editor.
K: Yeah. So, you did have your degree before we came. You didn’t have your degree when I came.
C: Correct. And we did not have… I did not have my degree when we decided to come.
K: Yeah. Yeah. So, I think that one of the easiest ways to come to Japan is get a 4-year college degree and then get a job teaching English. Something about the English-teaching jobs, though, that I think everyone should know is that they do not pay to relocate you.
C: No.
K: And so, it’s… you’ve gotta save money. So you’ve gotta work for like a year or something or work while you’re in college and then save the money to move yourself here. And that’s like, the flight and moving your stuff, however much stuff you want to bring.
C: Right.
K: And the setting up of the apartment. Like, your furniture, and all of that.
C: Yes. And I think that industry is something we could do a whole podcast on. It’s not the point. But both of us have worked in that industry.
K: Yes.
C: And neither of us work in that industry anymore.
K: So, I taught English for … a minute … and I did the English schools “eikaiwa”, and towards the end of my English-teaching career, I was doing freelance English teaching. I was doing traveling, “dispatch”, rather, dispatch English teaching. And it was through when I was working for a bunch of different companies that I met a young that man had hikkikomori, which is, he was a shut-in. And we experimented with creating another persona with the English personality being different than the Japanese personality, so that they could go out in the world. And that led to me working with other individuals with hikkikomori, and then from there, when you were working for one of the international schools, I started working with that international school, and then from there I started working with all of the international schools. And through working with the international schools I started working with the Child Protective Services here in Japan, and several Ward offices, and then the criminal justice system… so, I get referrals from the government. I get referrals from schools. I work with a lot of the professionals that come over here for, like, Toyota or Mitsubishi or Lockheed Martin. Any of the myriad of companies that have opportunities for individuals to come here, I work with them.
C: And you’re an approved provider for some of the travel insurance programs for students and things, so I know that you’ve gotten some referrals from them. I know that was a lot of paperwork to get that approval.
K: Yes, it was. A lot of rigamarole. Umm, so yeah. Several international insurers, I am the preferred provider in Nagoya. So I have a lot of referral sources, and I’m very fortunate in that the majority of my clients are very happy with the work that we do. And so I get a lot of word-of-mouth referrals.
C: By “we”, you mean Adjustment Guidance.
K: Yes.
C: Not you and me. You and your people.
K: Yeah. So, my therapy practice is called Adjustment Guidance, and usually people don’t like it the first time they hear that name. I know you didn’t like it.
C: I’m the one who came up with it.
K: You did not like it when we first, when we were talking about it. You kept suggesting other names.
C: Yeah. Because I second-guess myself.
K: Yeah, and you came up… I came up with the “Adjustment” part, you came up with the “Guidance” part. I wanted to be accepting about… I wanted “Adjustment” in the name.
C: Well, at the time what we were talking about was helping people adjust to life in Japan.
K: Well, for me at the time I was talking about helping people adjust to their truth, but “Adjustment Truth” is just not … (both laugh) … I feel like that name’s a little bit too full-on.
C: That’s like a Biblical name. In 1880, Adjustment Truth said…
K: Yeah. So, now that you’re a freelance writer, how are you pulling that off in Japan?
C: I write words, and sometimes people give me money for them, and sometimes they don’t, depending. I do volunteer for some organizations. And I also do freelance editing, so I’ve edited a few books, and you can find on the website some lists of people who have agreed to go public that they used my services.
K: And what’s our website?
C: Our website is themusicksinjapan.com and musicks is m-u-s-i-c-k-s.
K: Yeah. The old English spelling of musics.
C: Yes.
K: Of music. And then it’s plural because we’re two people.
C: Yes we are.
K: So we’re the Musicks in Japan.
C: Despite rumors otherwise.
K: So you’re also… you’ve also written a couple of novels that were.. that we have sent off to see if any agents are interested in
C: Yes, so I’ve written a couple of novels. I’m working on my fourth one now, and probably three of those will be eventually be published. (K laughs) The first one is kind of … trying out how to write a novel, and the answer was “Not That Way”. And I have poetry and short stories and sometimes those are paying markets. So, umm, that doesn’t pay enough to pay the bills, but working solidly for more than 5 years as an editor let us save up some money, so… At some point I may decide to self-publish. I think that’s a valid route to go. It presents some obstacles and presents some opportunities that differ from traditional publishing. And I think that’s mostly what I do. So, I’m mostly a copy editor, so in fiction, there’s developmental editors, where they tell you what’s wrong with your story, and copy editors, where they tell you what’s wrong with your words. I tell people what’s wrong with their words in the sense of how well they’re expressing what they want to express. If anybody follows us on Twitter, they’ll know that I’m not somebody who goes around correcting people’s grammar and spelling.
K: Yeah. You’re not the grammar police, which I greatly appreciate. I feel like if you are on Twitter policing grammar… like, come on, now? What’s that about? Twitter’s just fun. Twitter’s just like you don’t think about it, you just dash it off, like, as you’re walking from your car to your house. It should be like, for me, it should be easy breezy. But every now and then I do tweet something a little bit deeper. But I like just, like… jacked-up spelling, no grammar, crazy emojis… I love those kinds of tweets.
C: For me, it’s pretty simple. Two things: One they’re not paying me to correct their tweets.
K: Word! (laughs)
C: And two, everybody needs an editor if they’re going to be perfection.
K: Yeah.
C: So I have editors that I swap services with, so we don’t pay each other. So editors use editors.
K: But not for Twitter.
C: Not for Twitter, no. For Twitter, I do my own editing. And I still miss things.
K: And every now and then I’ll have you edit my tweets if I’m saying something serious, I’ll be like “Hey, can you look at this tweet?” But for the most part, I feel like, “Okay, if you go to our Twitter feed”–and we’re @TheMusicks on Twitter–and if you go to our Twitter feed you can tell who tweeted what by whether there’s any misspellings.” Because if there’s a misspelling it’s a really safe bet it’s my tweet.
C: But if there’s a missing word, it might be my tweet.
K: Sometimes I spell the word “anything” without an A without a Y… it’s just a word jumble. Because my typing… like, I’m a fierce three-finger typer, but if I use all of my fingers, I will just hit random keys.
C: Yes.
K: So if I’m typing quickly, like… I’m like, this is a word jumble.
C: You type like a hacker in a movie. (K laughs)
K: I do! (continues laughing) And I produce just about the same kind of gibberish they would. Ooh, have you seen that Twitter feed “I’m a [something] in a movie” and then they describe it?
C: Yes.
K: I love that thread. I think it’s so clever. I haven’t contributed to it, but I always think of like “Ooh, I’m a this-or-that in a movie…”, like when I’m watching movies and then I think “Okay, I should tweet that.”
C: Well, you’re a ghost in a movie. You don’t have fingers, so you can’t type that tweet.
K: So, I find that I make a very, for me, what I consider to be a comfortable and happy living being a therapist in Japan. For me, English teaching wasn’t my jam because I wanted to be doing therapy.
C: Right.
K: I think that English teaching is a good job, depending on the eikaiwa structure. The English-teaching school that you work for, or the company that you’re working for. Because not all English-teaching companies are the same. And not all English-teaching companies are the… like, if you go online and you read a bad review for one of the companies, that’s not to say that that’s going to be your experience. Because there is not symmetry, I find, from school to school. It’s a rare, rare company that actually has symmetry from school to school, even when they do massive trainings and all of that. It depends on the manager, both managers, the English… native-English speaking manager and the Japanese-national manager. So most schools have two managers, and if both of those managers are cool people with a mellow vibe, then the school is cool and mellow. If even just one of those managers has an issue with you, then life can be pretty challenging.
C: I think it depends on your temperament, too, just like any job. I couldn’t be a therapist, just temperamentally.
K: Really?
C: Yeah, I couldn’t.
K: Why not?
C: I think that listening to all of those problems… I have a lot of empathy for them, and I would want to solve them immediately, and I think I would experience a lot of frustration if I couldn’t solve them. Like, if somebody said “Oh, you know, so and so is being abusive to me.” I’d be like “Where are they at, and I’m gonna go kick their ass!” Even though I’ve never been in a fight as an adult.
K: But there’s a good portion of my clients–because I do a free intake for everyone–and there’s a good portion of my business that people get that one intake and they’re good.
C: Sometimes people just need to know that there’s somebody out there.
K: No, sometimes we’re able to, like, get to the heart of things and wrap it up in one session.
C: Well you’re just that good.
K: (laughing) It’s not true for everybody. And thank you. I will take the compliment. But I always look at… I am honored and humbled by people letting me, allowing me into their process. And I believe that the number one thing I provide is objectivity and a sounding board. So, the number one thing is objectivity, the number two thing is a sounding board, the number three thing is a safe space. And all of that mixed in with confidentiality… some people just come in and they just need someone to just talk it out with just once, and they can find their own answers. And sometimes people come in and it really is just “change this one thing” and everything gets better.
C: Well, I think some of us, like me, were raised to have a lot of self-doubt. And so it can be helpful to have somebody who you can express your self-doubts to, and they can help you understand what’s objective and what’s not about them.
K: Yeah.
C: So you and I have never had a therapeutic relationship in that way.
K: No, that would be incredibly inappropriate. I don’t have any objectivity when it comes to you. None.
C: Right.
K: I’m so in that. (laughs)
C: But, we provide each other a lot of comfort, emotionally.
K: Absolutely.
C: Physically, too, but that’s a different podcast.
K: (laughing) Completely different show, because that is not how we make our money.
C: No, it’s not. Nothing wrong with that, but
K: No, yeah, we’re completely sex positive and sex-work positive, but we’re just.. I feel like I don’t have enough energy to do sex work these days.
C: Mmm.
K: I feel that is just like, I don’t know. I’d have to put makeup on and like that’s a whole thing, and I’d have to do my hair and that’s a whole thing, and then I’d have to put on something sexy and that’s a whole thing. So.
C: Well, for me, most of what I’ve edited has been non-fiction, because, you know, I have my PhD and people want to send me stuff because I know the words. I won’t make them say something they’re not saying. But number two after non-fiction is actually erotic romance novels.
K: Yeah.
C: I’ve edited a bunch of those. So, it’s work like anything else.
K: And then I find that when I write erotica—because I’ve written erotica a couple times—I just want to send it to you. I don’t want anybody else to read it. So it feels very… when I write it, it’s very specific to you. And so that’s why I don’t write erotica.
C: Well, and I don’t either. I write surrealism.
K: So why don’t you write erotica? I think you’d be good at it.
C: I think I would be too, but my heart wouldn’t be in it. So, for me, I see the world very differently from how most people see it, and part of the reason that I write …. long form things, novels in particular, is that I want to share something with the world. I want to change the way people think.
K: So I think you touched on something very important about what we’re doing now for our money. We’re both doing what makes our heart sing for money. So, for me, it really does make my heart sing to work with couples, individuals, and families, in helping them have more good days than bad and with the goal being more good days than bad, it just feels like I’m putting positivity out into the world, and it’s very fulfilling for me. And so, when I go to work, I find my work very fulfilling, and I’m so grateful and humble that I can be paid for doing something I love. And I don’t agree with the statement that “if you do what you love…”
C: “You’ll never work a day in your life?” You’ll still work.
K: Yeah, no. It’s still work. I’m still working. There are still challenges to it. But I really do, really do love what I do. And at this time in my life I really can’t see anything else I’d want to do, and so this really feels like my path. And I feel fortunate that this is something I can do well into my senior years, provided I don’t get Alzheimer’s. So, and the older I get, the better I get at it, and I really dig that aspect of being a therapist. Nobody is like “Oh, you’re 65, you have no wisdom. You’re 70, have no wisdom.” They’d be like “Dang, you know ‘cause you’ve lived!” (C laughs)
C: Well, because you’ve been doing this since you were in your 20s.
K: Yes, I have, and so, for me, it’s just super fulfilling. How is writing for you? Because I think of you more as a writer than I do as an editor, at this point in your life.
C: I think at this point. So I think what I do to make money in the immediate is people pay me now to edit. But I’m obviously hoping to sell books. So I’m hoping that at some point the bulk of my income comes from selling my own writing, rather than from helping other people adjust their writing to sell. I think of myself as a writer, too. Do you know, in high school I was voted most likely to win a Pulitzer.
K: No, I didn’t know that.
C: Yes, yes.
K: Wow, the layers just keep peeling away. This is like the never-ending onion.
C: So even though I ended up going to school for math, in high school I was known for writing.
K: And I’ve read some of your high-school writing, it was really good.
C: Thank you.
K: It’s what made me think that you should be a writer, and I’ve been pushing you towards this for two decades now.
C: Thank you, and I don’t think that no matter what I will ever win a Pulitzer because it’s focused on the American experience, so I think I’m kind of the wrong thing for that. Most of my books are not focused on the American experience. They have international elements to them and things. So, I’ve always known that I wanted to be a writer. But I took the easier path of doing computer programming because I was doing that for fun on a game, and people said to me, “Hey, do you know you can come to Silicon Valley and make a lot of money at this, because you’re really good at it?”
K: Mmm. Yeah.
C: And so that’s when I moved to California, which was shortly after I graduated from high school. And then things from there have kind of taken a winding road, and getting back into writing is a really nice thing for me. I liked teaching kids, middle-school kids in particular, math, but
K: But the bureaucracy that comes with that.
C: Yeah, the bureaucracy and, too, the heartbreak of it. I had kids crying because they didn’t get the grade they wanted because they didn’t do the homework. Which I was required to grade them on, and… the whole thing of it, you know. Just, telling kids what they’re worth based on their grades. There’s got to be a better way. I don’t know that better way.
K: Yeah. I feel like the education system is built really well for some kids and not really well for others. Because our kid aged out of traditional school at age 12, and so he… in California, you take a test to graduate high school. And so he did graduate high school. He took the test. And he entered college at that very young age. And we were alerted that it was going to be an issue in second grade. And so in second grade, his teacher was angry at him for reading Lord of the Rings by himself and was like “You can’t really be reading this book”, and so then we had to go in and he had to stay after school and actually read from the book to her, tell her what the story was about, and prove that he was reading it. And then from that moment, it was on. For him and her. He would start correcting her spelling when she would write on the board. And then he was going up to third grade for math and being disruptive because the math was too easy, so they were talking about maybe having him switch and go to fourth grade for math. So then we put him in private school, and it was a little bit better because they had the grade-level, grade-level-plus, and grade-level-plus-plus, but there were students that they were taking from the elementary school to the junior high for classes, and he was kind of on that route, and it didn’t feel safe to me.
C: Mmhmm. And I did that. I was bussed from the junior high to the high school when I was there. So I rode the “short bus” that everyone thinks is just for kids with intellectual delays or physical problems but is actually for anybody who needs something out of the ordinary as far as that. So what I needed was to go to the high school even though I was in junior high.
K: Yeah, and I had the experience of when I was in elementary school having them skip me a grade and put me in junior high school. And that was not a positive experience for me.
C: Yeah, I had exactly the same experience.
K: And so because neither one of us had positive experiences with that, leaving elementary to junior high, we didn’t do that to our son.
C: So something a little funny, and I don’t even remember her name, so she won’t be embarrassed because she won’t know… when I entered junior high school, I was walking down the hall and I heard somebody behind me shout out “hey, sexy!” (K laughs) and like, I didn’t think anybody was talking to me, and she kept calling “hey sexy!” and she came up right behind me and whispered in my ear, “hey, sexy, what’s your name? What grade are you in?” And I said “I’m Chad.” and she told me her name, and she said “How old are you?” I said “I’m nine.” And she was like, “Oh My God. I’m fifteen!” Just, no.
K: Yeah, poor thing. So how all of this kind of played into what we do now is it gave us lots of free time to figure ourselves out because when you don’t have a kid in traditional school, I feel like there’s so much… I feel like we had so much more free time. Because we weren’t stuck a school schedule. We could make our own schedule. Because he went to college online.
C: Yes.
K: Which allowed for us to also go to college online.
C: Well, I think that the school schedule wasn’t such a problem because when he was in school, we could drop him off as early as 7 and pick him up as late as 7, so 12 hours in a day is quite a bit of time.
K: I thought it was 5:30.
C: No, it was actually 7. We didn’t pay for the extra until 7.
K: Oh, okay.
C: We picked him up earlier than that because we weren’t trying to have him live his full life at school. But the freedom of him not being in traditional school was… it was more that we were in Japan, so he didn’t depend on us to transport him to activities.
K: Mmm. Yeah. Because it was, I feel, a lot safer for kids, because when you see a five-year-old riding the subway, I kind of feel like a twelve-year-old can do it.
C: Yeah.
K: You see five-year-olds by themselves on the subway just doing their thing, so I feel like, yeah, he can absolutely. So, for me, this kind of thinking outside of the box that we do, because I feel like we don’t look at life traditionally, and that our life isn’t really traditional, has led to non-traditional ways of earning money. And the only reason I feel like what I’m doing is non-traditional is because my Japanese is crazy busted.
C: Uh-huh.
K: Even though we’ve been here for 12 years, and even though I did almost 6 months of intensive language training. It just… I just don’t have the level of Japanese I would want to do therapy in Japanese.
C: Right.
K: So, telling somebody, “Hey, I’m going to move to Japan and do therapy in English!” That’s like “What? What are you thinking?” and for me, it was just like, hey, let’s try it and see if it works. That willingness to just try it and not be afraid of if I try something and it doesn’t work out. And so the first couple years of Adjustment Guidance it was a very very different practice than the practice it is now. Now, it’s a very well-rounded practice, very set and very smooth… the operation of it is very smooth. But when I first started, I never imagined I’d be working with clients in Laos, Vietnam, and Thailand. If you had told me that, I would have been like, “Whatchoo say?” Like, “What?” And that I would be working with those people in Japanese, I would have been like “What the what?” (C laughs) So, for me, I do Skype sessions all over Asia for clients and my office manager does do interpretation, and that was born out of having couples come to me where one partner was a Japanese national and the other was a foreign national. And so they… the language that they communicated in was Japanese. And so, they were okay with doing interpretation because they just wanted help. They just wanted anyone who could help them. And I was like “Right on,” and I don’t charge extra for the interpretation because I feel like I’m in Japan, I should be able to provide services in Japanese.
C: Well, I think that that’s kind of an ethos, too, because I say on our website if I’m editing something for you and there’s tons and tons of mistakes, I might ask for more money, but if you tell me you’ve got dyslexia, I’m not going to.
K: Right. And so. But they have to really have dyslexia. The mistakes have to track…
C: Yes, yes. I’m not saying this a coupon code. I’m saying that I don’t believe in charging more because of circumstances beyond their control. And I think you’re saying the same thing.
K: Yes. And so a big part of my business is based on my ability to communicate in Japanese with an interpreter. So the fact that I have an interpreter really impacts the way my business runs, and really impacts… because I have a therapeutic interpreter, which is different than just regular interpretation. And my interpreter is my son, and so he’s been working for the company now, gosh… I want to say a good seven or eight years now?
C: Mmhmm.
K: So, he did a lot of push-in and shadowing with kids because, with kids there is a portion of the session where I have to talk with mom and dad. There needs to be somebody to watch the kids.
C: Right.
K: And so they parents asked if it was okay if he you know, sat in on the session, and then there were the… dealing with couples that were millennials and he just got lots and lots of training through sitting in on different sessions. And that allowed him to learn the vocabulary of therapy. Which is why he’s a therapeutic interpreter, because how you translate… English doesn’t translate directly to Japanese. So you have to know all these emotive words. And you have to understand me and what I’m saying and my rhythm and the way that I speak as a therapist. Because the way that I speak as a therapist is completely different than how we’re talking right now. So there’s crossover, but there’s some key phrases I like to use, like “your toolchest” and “unpack” and… and all of those kinds of things that are very idiosyncratic to me.
C: I think one thing about your office that makes that kind of possible is that it’s in a residential apartment.
K: Yeah.
C: And that’s really really common in Japan is that if you have a small business you rent out residential apartment space.
K: Well, there are several businesses in the neighborhood that are boutique businesses.
C: So, and that’s because the price for commercial place triple what it is for a residential place.
K: Yeah.
C: But the mixed-zoning means that it’s not a problem to run from your apartment unless you have an agreement that says otherwise.
K: Yeah, and my office is like ten minutes, a ten-minute bike ride from our house.
C: Right. You know, one of our neighbors is a piano teacher, so it’s very common if you have a kind of person-to-person business to run it from an apartment.
K: Well and I have two different units in the building. So one unit is my waiting room and then one unit is my office. And I have a teaching room and a therapy room. So I do a lot of speech therapy, which I absolutely love. I love doing speech therapy.
C: Well that’s where you got your start.
K: Yeah. And so I, it just makes my heart sing. I love love love teaching reading, and so I do speech therapy with… across the age spectrum, with all ages. And I teach reading with all ages. I just love doing it. I really enjoy doing therapy as well, but there’s something special about speech therapy for me.
C: Mmhmm.
K: It just. It’s so… because it’s so clear to me that I’m empowering somebody. Giving them the ability to speak, I think is such a powerful thing. And it’s undeniable that you’ve been successful. And with traditional talk therapy, I find that I’m really good at signposting and helping people catch their moments.
C: Right.
K: Umm, but, other therapists I’ve talked with really kind of struggled with that. Like, letting their clients know what is their… the value added of the therapeutic process.
C: Well, I think therapy is one of those businesses where it’s tricky because you have an ethical responsibility to help the person as much as possible, but if you make them all better, then they stop being your client. And I know…
K: And that’s my goal. To put myself out of business.
C: I know that’s your goal. But I know that that’s not every therapists’ goal.
K: Yeah. There’s one in Japan who’s… ugh. A little shady. That really, really works hard. I’m not going to mention any names. I’m not going to put anybody on blast. But there is one that works really, really hard to create umm… medication dependence and emotional dependence on their services. Just a really, I feel, a really toxic dynamic for a therapist in with that thinking. You have to prepared for every session to be your client’s last. For positive and negative reasons. Because they have autonomy, and the power to choose to never come back again.
C: Right.
K: And they should feel that power every time. Like, they should know that you’re not going to hate them or close the door or burn any bridges if a client’s like “Nope, I’m good”.
C: I know some days you come home and you’re like “I had a good day and my clients were really validating.” But I know that I also have people who tell me, you know, “your wife was really, really helpful to my friend. So please tell her thank you. I can’t tell you my friend’s name or what she did, just that, you know…. they were really thankful.”
K: And I know that people who you work with for editing will tell me the same. That you were really helpful. That you’re amazing. That you’re so kind and generous and patient. You’re like really patient. And you don’t make anybody feel stupid, which I think is
C: That’s never my goal when I’m editing. And I do tutoring as well. I’m a little expensive for most people for tutoring because I do charge what I can get. And unless I give it to you for free, which is rare. Right now I’m all full up on that. So I know that people find that helpful. Because what I try to do is let people’s own voice come out. Not rewrite for them.
K: Yeah.
C: One thing I think about our money is that, right now, what I’m doing feels really risky. Trying to make money writing fiction.
K: Mmhmm.
C: But what you’re doing really right now is really solid because of your business.
K: Sometimes it feels precarious, man.
C: I know, but we go over the averages and you’re solid.
K: Yeah, I know, I already have two days that are booked through the end of 2020. But it’s still just like… man. Everything’s not booked solid and locked in for the next five years.
C: But, when you started your
K: Nothing’s guaranteed
C: But when you started your business it was the other way around. It was really uncertain where that was going to go, but I had rock solid income. And you and I have kind of switched back and forth on that to where one of us will have steady money while the other one takes risks. So, in that sense, our partnership is integral to us doing what we do.
K: Yes.
C: I could not be where I am if I didn’t have you and
K: Oh, thank you.
C: And I think it’s fair to say you could not be where you are if you didn’t have me.
K: Absolutely. Absolutely. I tell everybody that my marriage provides me the foundation to be who I am and do what I do. Because something that I think is really cool for me is that I am able to tell all of my clients that I absolutely have more good days than bad days. I’m absolutely in a good place. And I’m absolutely happily married. And my life isn’t perfect. I don’t think anybody’s is, but for me, I would hope that your therapist was having more good days than bad. And I have a therapist. So, those are kind of things that I share with my clients to let them know, yeah, I’m happy. And I believe that everybody can get to that place of whatever their “happy” looks like. Because I think happy is very individual.
C: I think that’s really important. Because with your illnesses, I know that it could be easy to use that as a reason to say well, “this is why I’m not happy”.
K: Yeah. Because having porphyria and lupus ain’t fun.
C: And so I think being happy but in pain is kind of an interesting experience.
K: It is. It is. And so I do work with a lot of individuals that have chronic illness. I really love how diverse my practice is. Because I’m thinking like, right now, I can honestly not think of any two clients that are seeing me for the same thing. And I think that is so cool. Because every day is different, and I love that variety, which is why I don’t specialize. Because I love the variety, and like, my whole master’s thing was like why the world needs more generalists, especially in the field of psychology. And you have a whole capitalist thing about specialization.
C: Well, I think that it’s just born of the need to specialize to find a niche.
K: Yeah. I find that if there’s a glut that you need to specialize to differentiate yourself. But right now, I think I’m one of three in Aichi, which is sort of like the county.
C: Yeah, so. I have a certificate in business, and I can talk about being a low-cost leader vs. the diversification leader and your diversification leader is not the cheapest. You’re not expensive relative to
K: No. Everybody charges… my rates are the going rate.
C: Your rates are the going rate. Right. So I think that, you know, being able to see so many different people must be really nice for you.
K: It is.
C: And I know that I could teach editing as a separate… not everybody wants the same style or the same voice. So I think both of us in the way that we work try to personalize to our clients.
K: Yeah. Something we didn’t mention is your talks.
C: Oh, yes.
K: You give a mean talk. You give a mean talk. Everybody loves your talks. Because after you give a talk, people are clamoring for your notes from the talk. Because the talk is so amazing. And I’ve been to several of your talks over the years, and I’m always astounded because some of the talks I’ve been to more than once, and they’re completely different. Even if they’re on the same topic. And so I love your ability to give a good talk.
C: Thank you. Yeah, and I guess those do play a role in the money, because usually if I give a talk it’s either free or it starts at $1,000, depending on what you want me to talk about. So, yeah, I mean… those are kind of…. bursts…. of money. It’s less predictable.
K: So what I think is really cool, something that I’ve always loved about you is that there’s a pervasive humility in everything that you do. And I think that that pervasive humility leads to an elegance and a quiet confidence. With… because it’s a complete absence of arrogance. And I love expertise without arrogance. I think there’s just something stunning about that.
C: Thank you. One of the things I got called most as a kid was “arrogant”…
K: But incorrectly.
C: Incorrectly, I know now, but at the time that really stuck with me, so I really worked hard to understand why people were feeling that. And I came to understand that when somebody calls…
K: Because you were smarter than them. (laughs) Ooh, that was a mean girl moment! (laughs) Don’t you dare say nothing bad about my husband! I will mean girl you in a heartbeat.
C: Well, I came to understand that when people said it they were saying it from insecurity.
K: Yeah.
C: And so I try to reassure people that, you know, I’m not there to judge them. I’m there to help them. And apparently I do a pretty good job of that.
K: And I think you’re really to ask questions to.
C: I hope so. I encourage questions. So I always build question time into my talks. And so if I’m giving a PowerPoint talk, my typical thing is to have enough slides to leave maybe 30 minutes for questions, but then to have an extra set of slides beyond the “Thank you” slide in case nobody asks questions. So that I can say “Well, if nobody has any questions, let’s cover this extra topic.”
K: Yeah, to make sure you fill your time. Because you’re really good at showing up on time and running on time, which.. giving a talk, that is an art form in and of itself. I talk every now and then. It’s not my favorite, but I will do it. And I usually don’t… I usually do it for… as some sort of volunteer purpose. I used to trainings at schools, but I’m super expensive for the schools. Because it tanks my entire day, and I’d rather be doing
C: It tanks several days, because you have to prep it, too.
K: So I’d rather be doing in-person therapy. It’s my jam. I can do talks. Maybe I’ll do more talks in the future. But not looking that way.
C: Mmhmm.
K: But I also run on time. And so I know how difficult that is to stay on time and keep pace because sometimes you can get a question that the person is just a talker.
C: Well when I was in grad school, we had to give a lot of talks. That was required. Everybody had to talk. You had to talk at least once a year to your committee in a formal setting about what you’d done, and they said the number one rule is “Don’t run over.” They say “If you notice the time is done and you’re in the middle of a sentence, don’t even finish the sentence.” (K laughs) Just say “Thank you. Sorry I couldn’t finish. Please contact me after if you have more questions. Thank you for your time.”
K: Yeah. So something I think that’s cool about our Twitter is that you do answer grammar and editing questions on our Twitter. I do not do e-therapy. So
C: I think they’re completely different things. Because when I give somebody a grammar answer, I can give them a complete answer for their context. But often in therapy and I know this from watching therapy TV shows (K laughs)
K: Which I love way too much!
C: Which you say are… like the ones that you say “wow, this is really what it’s like.” I think the latest one was a few years ago called “In Session”.
K: Yeah. By HBO.
C: Yeah. But you said “wow, this really captures it.” So, I think that when you talk about something it can dig up, like, deeper issues.
K: Yeah.
C: So that could lead to further issues. And I know that this happens when I’m teaching math. So if I’m teaching math, I often discover, okay, you’ve never really understood fractions. You worked hard enough to get all the way through calculus and into differential equations, but you haven’t actually ever understood fractions. So, you know, math, I’ll talk about it briefly because I love it, but a lot of people who think that they are good at math because they can remember hundreds of unrelated things, they are good at math, but they’re going to hit a wall. Because everybody will eventually. And that wall is going to come from not understanding fundamental that happened early on.
K: Yeah.
C: And so they started memorizing all these different math things as though they’re all disconnected. And if they go back and understand it, then they’re like “Oh, so this all fits into place!” Because I’ve had students “How do you remember all of this stuff?” and I say “Well, I can work anything need to out from the framework if I don’t remember it. And here’s my framework.”
K: So do you give… ‘cause I just have to own that I don’t always read our Twitter feed. You are a much more prolific Tweeter than I am.
C: I have a lot more free time.
K: Do you do a lot of math stuff on Twitter?
C: I do not do a lot of math stuff.
K: Okay. Because I know that there has been a couple of people that you accidentally got into an e-therapy situation because they misunderstood you as me. And then I go into our DMs and try to wrap it up quickly and supportively. And I think that that’s where “the first session is free” really comes in handy. And so that’s why I’m just putting it out there: I do not do e-therapy.
C: No, you don’t do it at all.
K: E-therapy is its own form of therapy. It’s an emergent type of therapy. And while I am capable of doing e-therapy, I find that that takes away from my in-person practice. And that’s the majority of my practice right now is in-person. So there are apps out there where you can just send a text any time you’re feeling anxious to a therapist and they’ll respond. Or there’s people that you can exchange… that they just do e-mail therapy. There is a couple Twitter therapists out there. And I’m like, “Hey, crack on. Get your coins.” I’m not mad, and it’s just, I’m not judging, I’m just saying it’s not my lane. I dabbled in those arenas and it just, for me, it’s so time-consuming.
C: So these days if I see something I’ll just say something like “Sympathy.” Like, just “Sympathy.” And that’s me just saying like “I’m not in any way qualified to help you with these problems, but I am sympathetic to people having problems.”
K: And every now and then I will tweet out sort like a therapy response to a tweet if, like, I’m scrolling through our feed and I see something that I feel like just a little pick-me-up would do, so…
C: Like an affirmation kind of thing?
K: Yeah, like, not always affirmation. I think more support than affirmation. And I find that I can have like a one-day quick exchange with somebody if I’m, you know, in the Twitter zone that day.
C: Right.
K: So, it’s not strictly “never ever”, but it’s not my favorite.
C: And you never get paid for it.
K: Yeah, I never get paid for it, and so I think that probably impacts my enthusiasm for it. And I just… I cannot compete with the rates that other therapists are giving for it.
C: Right.
K: I just can’t go down. I can’t drop my rates that low. And I feel it’s unfair to my in-person clients. I like the traditional talk therapy in person.
C: And I think you can’t compete with the ability… so, one thing I know happens a lot is that people call your phone trying to schedule appointments. But that’s your phone, and only you answer it.
K: Yeah, but you’re on the answering message.
C: But I’m on the answering message.
K: And I rarely answer my phone, if I’m honest. Because I don’t answer in session, and I don’t answer after hours.
C: Yeah, if it rings when we’re home, you don’t answer it. Because are your days off or it’s past your… so people really have to email you.
K: My preference is email, and so I don’t usually, but I do return phone calls.
C: Yes. And that’s the purpose of having it, is so people can call and leave a message and you’ll return their phone call.
K: Yeah. I’ve had people Skype me. Just randomly Skype me. Just wanting a session right that minute. Or people call me up “Where are you?” And I’m like “What are you talking about?” (C laughs) Because they wanted drop-in service. And in Japan, the TELL Tokyo support line is better suited for that between 9 am and 11 pm, 7 days a week. For me, I’m not a drop-in service. I am an appointment-only therapy practice.
C: Because you help people by building a relationship with them. It’s not…
K: Yeah. And it really goes down to what the person’s preference is. I, you know, because every therapist is a person. And my preference is I like having scheduled appointments because of the way that I prepare and before each session I like to read all of my previous session notes, and I have a whole rhythm that I do… so, yeah. I really, I love my practice. I’m really satisfied with the way it’s set up. I’m really happy with the diversity in my clientele, and my clients are just the most amazing, hard-working people on the planet. They come in, I’m so just really humble and thankful. Because they come in ready to work, man. They come in and they work their buns off. They do… they’re digging deep, they’re doing their homework. So I’m really, really fortunate in that everyone who I work with wants to be in a therapeutic relationship. And that they’re choosing me as that therapeutic partner. So, I’m really really happy that I get to make my money this way. I’m really grateful. Really really grateful.
C: And I’ll be really happen when I’m making most of my money through fiction, so buy my book. You can’t yet.
K: Books!
C: Not available yet. But maybe by the time you hear this podcast they will be. And if so, you’ll be able to find that information on our website.
K: Yeah. And our website is?
C: TheMusicksInJapan.com
K: So how do you make your money? Do you love it? Do you hate it? Let us know. Drop us a line. Drop us a message. And… yeah. Talk to you next time.
C: Bye bye.