K: So, lately I’ve been thinking about the story of us.

C: The story of us, like the whole thing?

K: Yeah, like, how we met and all of that, and how we got together, and I’ve been thinking about it because clients always ask me—well, my most recent intake asked me if I was happy, and I said “Yes”, and they said “Oh good, because you seem happy.”

Like, they care whether or not their therapist is happy, which I think is awesome. I think everyone should ask their therapist if they’re happy. And, they also asked me if I was happily married. And I said, “Yes, I’m happily married.” I’m ecstatic with our marriage. I absolutely love our marriage.

C: Me, too. I feel like our story is just started though, so… I know it’s been, like, a couple decades—

K: —Yeah

C: —but I feel like we’re still in the origin stories.

K: So, I don’t feel like we’re in the origin stories anymore because we’ve raised our son.

C: I don’t know, I mean, like—

K: He’s an adult man now.

C: —Like, how old is Batman, right?

(K laughs)

C: Because if Batman had aged… so, you know.

K: So if they can come out with Batman’s origin story now—

C: Exactly.

K: —after over 50 years…

C: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

K: Okay, yeah, if we’re measuring in superhero  years, then we’re still in the origin phase.

C: Yeah, but we’re the original. We’re the Golden Age.

K: Yeah, we are the Golden Age. I like that. That’s awesome. So, I feel really fortunate that we met in college.

C: Yeah, me too.

K: I think that’s like a really fun origin story.

C: Well, and meeting in community college. I feel like it, it doesn’t make it more fun, but it does give me a chance to tell people how awesome community college is.

K: I don’t feel like De Azna was awesome just because we met.

C: No, it was awesome for other reasons.

K: (laughs) Yes. Lots of other reasons.

C: And that’s why I’m saying I like being able to talk to people about those other reasons. Because I really like the way that we met… I feel like De Anza, which is the community college where we met, kind of typified that. That we were both there for self-improvement.

K: Yes. But I think most people—no, I think most people of a mature age…. But I think I was of a mature age but you were still like college age.

C: I was still college age, yes.

K: Yeah, ’cause I’m six and a half years older than you.

C: Yes, you are.

K: So I was of a more mature age.

C: Yes, (K starts laughing) you were of a more mature age. You keep saying that, and I’m going to remind people that you’re only 6 years and 4 months older than me, not 6 and a half.

K: Oh wow, okay.

C: So, watch out.

K: Yeah, and I always round up to I’m a decade older than you.

C: Yeah, you do.

K: Well, because with you growing up in Alaska and me growing up in California, it does feel like there was a decade in between like the popular culture that I experienced and the popular culture that you experienced.

C: No, it works the other way because it took like five years for things to get to Alaska, so a lot of our pop culture references were the same. Because one of the first things that we bonded over was the fact that we both really liked Cake. Not the food.

K: No, the band.

C: Yeah, I mean, I like cake the food—

K: But we both loved Cake, the song “Never There”, which was playing on the radio. It was their most popular song at the time.

C: Yes.

K: So what are you talking about?

C: I’m talking about. You know….

(K laughs)

K: You’re talking about you don’t know?

C: I don’t know.

K: You’re talking about us having the same cultural references.

C: I don’t know. That reminds me of the day that Outkast’s “Hey Ya” came on.

K: Yep.

C: And you called me on the phone. I forget where you were. Maybe at work or something. You called me on the phone, and you said “What’s that song?” And that’s all you said. And I said, “I looked it up, it’s called Hey Ya. It’s by Outkast.”

(K laughs)

K: Yes, you were always doing that for me. And I was always calling you up, “What’s this song?”

C: ‘Cause you didn’t even say anything about what song it was. It was just “What’s that song?”

K: Yeah. Yeah.

C: You know, usually you have to say, like, “I heard this…”, but I think “Hey Ya” and I think “Seven Nation Army” by the White Stripes.

K: Yep. Those were both, “What’s that song?” and you knew them immediately.

C: Yep.

K: So, when I was working with Applied Behavior Consultants, I used to call you in between cases, because I would drive to their homes.

C: Right, right.

K: And I would always call you in between or when I was in transit. So I wasn’t calling you while I was working. I was calling you during my transportation time.

C: Yeah, but for me that was you were at work. Like, I couldn’t call you up, because you were at work.

K: Yes, that’s true. That’s correct. So, anyways. I like the story of how we met because, to me, it’s so interesting to me how many things that had to happen for us to meet. Because I feel so luck and so fortunate to have met you. So, we had a friend. Well, I had a friend, because you didn’t know her at the time—

C: Yeah, I didn’t have any friends.

K: There was one of the quads at De Anza. I would hang out and smoke cigarettes with my friends. And one of my friends came out of… statistics class, was it, or econ?

C: Economics.

K: Okay. Came out of econ class. And right before them, you had come out of econ class and you were standing by a tree.

C: Yep.

K: And I was laughing and talking and she said to me, “I’m gonna fail econ.” And I said, “Well, don’t you know anybody in this class?” And she was like, “no”, and I said “well, who’s the smartest person in the class?” and she pointed to you. And I said, “that dude over there?” and she was like, “yeah”, and so I said “HEY! YOU! COME HERE!” and you looked down very comically and pointed at yourself, and I was like “YEAH, YOU. COME HERE.” And then, to my surprise, you actually walked over to us.

C: Well, I mean, now I think you know that like somebody yelling at me… it’s embarrassing.

(K laughs)

K: Yes.

C: I walked over to make you stop.

K: Yes. So I didn’t know that you were just trying to make me stop yelling “hey you”, and it was apparent that I was going to keep yelling at you until you came over.

C: Absolutely.

K: And then I asked you, like, I didn’t ask you your name or anything, I said, “Hey, we’re all going to lunch. Do you want to come with us?”

C: Yeah, it was weird to me that you didn’t ask whether I was good at economics.

K: Yeah, I didn’t.

C: Because… you know… her assumption that I was good at economics because I was skipping class…

(K laughs)

C: —It was a pretty big leap.

K: Yes.

C: I mean I was good at economics, but I hadn’t transferred my AP scores. So I could have skipped that class if I had transferred my AP scores, but because I went to high school so long ago they were on microfiche, so it was like a whole thing to get them transferred because they weren’t electronic.

K: Yeah.

C: So I decided to take that class. You know, and I was enjoying it, so, at the time, that class cost me $35, to take that whole class. So, I was just like, you know “I’ll just take this, and enjoy myself.” So because I was too lazy to get my AP score transferred, we met.

(K laughs)

C: So, yeah, you asked me to go to lunch—

K: I think because, so what’s interesting is because you had a crush on that friend, I feel like, for me, that’s why you came over. And the reason that you agreed to go to lunch with us is because you had a crush on that friend.

C: Well, I’d say an eye crush. Because I didn’t even know her name.

K: Yeah. And we’re going to leave her name out because you know—

C: Yeah.

K: —we’re protecting identities. So, for me it was really interesting that I had just called you over and invited you to go to lunch with us, and the whole purpose of everything was for you and our friend to connect. And then through the process of lunch, I just found you to be so incredibly interesting.

C: And funny.

K: Yes, and funny.

C: I feel like that’s the more important part.

K: Yes, you always make me laugh, and the fact that you tell really smart jokes, I really enjoyed. Because over lunch, we were all discussing a fellow classmate, who was a male, and this person had never had sex, and one of our other classmates—because it was a group of like, 5 of us, 5 or 6 of us—and they were all discussing this person’s virginity, and they were kind of lusting after him. And I wasn’t, because I said “he’s dumb as a post”, to which you said….

C: “Don’t insult the post.”

K: Yes, and that cracked me up.

C: Yeah.

K: So, no, say the rest of the joke. You said, “don’t insult the post because…”

C: I don’t remember the rest of the joke.

(K laughs)

C: Because that was the funny part to me.

K: You said “don’t insult the post because” … something. I don’t remember the joke now, either.

C: I just made you forget it.

K: Yeah, you did.

C: Magic trick!

K: Total magic trick. No, I think it was something about the post was smarter than the person because they had atoms or something move. I don’t know. It was a really funny joke. At the time. But this is a couple decades ago. I’m old. I’m tired. I can’t remember.

(C laughs)

K: But, and in that moment, I felt so bonded to you.

C: Mmhmm.

K: And it gave me an exit out of a really uncomfortable conversation.

C: Right.

K: Because I didn’t like the fact that everybody was sort of lusting over this guy based on his looks and making a big deal about whether or not the person had had sex. Because I didn’t feel like that was any of my business.

C: Right.

K: And whether or not someone has had sex prior to dating me, umm, doesn’t impact how attractive they are to me as a person.

C: I think it’s kind of creepy. I mean, I know that it’s big in some circles to like, want to…

K: Be someone’s first?

C: Be someone’s first. And I think if you’re a virgin and you want to marry a virgin, that’s like… you know… rock on with your virginal self. Like, in all seriousness.

K: Yeah.

C: But I think that if you’re not a virgin, whether or not somebody else is shouldn’t have any bearing on how attractive you find them. Because I see it primarily in guys who want to sleep with women who are virgins—

K: But there’s like a whole group of… I’ve known a lot of women that really value male virginity.

C: Yeah.

K: And female virginity.

C: It’s creepy to me.

K: Yeah, I don’t value the virginal self. But that’s just me. I don’t feel like it’s anything special.

C: Yeah.

K: To be someone’s first. I think if you’re someone’s first, there’s just a lot of stuff you’re going to have to teach them.

(C laughs)

K: And I don’t value teaching in that way.

C: You went to college to learn, not to teach.

K: Thank you! Snaps. Props. So, after that I remember us just becoming really fast friends, and hanging out together all the time. And we sort of started to talk about everybody else in our friend group behind their back, and just became best friends.

C: Yeah. I mean… not, gossip. I think when you say “talk about them behind their back” it makes it sound like we were gossiping about people. And I think we were just talking about like what they had going on in their life. Not drama, just in general—

K: Yeah.

C: —because how everybody came to De Anza was so different.

K: Yeah, because the one friend who was failing econ was actually high-school age…

C: Right.

K: …and De Anza has a really great program for high-school students who are struggling. In their junior year of high school, they can transfer to De Anza and get their high-school diploma while earning college credit.

C: Right. And as soon as I found out that, that ended that eye crush.

(K laughs)

K: Which made me respect you so much.

C: Uh-huh.

K: That was one of the things that I like really respected you for was that just knowing someone’s age made them not attractive to you. And a lot of people don’t have that, and so I really admired and respected your integrity and your moral substance. Because I did view our friend as a child, and when they would hang out with us they would ask “Hey, can… is it okay if I drink? Can you slip me some alcohol?” and I was always like, “no. I’m not contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Just, nope.”

C: Yeah, I remember going to the movies with her and some other people, and we were all ordering margaritas, and we ordered her a Shirley Temple.

K: Yep.

C: And then when she complained we ordered her a second one.

K: (laughing) Yes!

C: And she drank them ’cause she liked them.

K: Yes, she did! But she was so pissed off at us for that.

C: Yeah, but I think part of the reason she hung out with us, and you know she could always write and say it was wrong is because we didn’t treat her like she was grown. Because I know growing up being treated like somebody who was grown, that was too much responsibility for me.

K: But we also didn’t condescend to her. We treated her as a friend.

C: That’s what I’m saying. But we didn’t, like, expect her to know everything, and I think we treated her as a friend but also with boundaries.

K: Yeah. Nobody ever had sex with her. Nobody gave her drugs. Nobody gave her alcohol.

C: Right. Yep.

K: Yeah. So I think we were a safe space.

C: Yes.

K: Because some of the other people that she was hanging out with at the time, I didn’t feel like were a safe space for her.

C: Right.

K: But I don’t want to go into that, because that’s her story, not ours.

C: Yeah.

K: So, we became friends, and we became best friends, and we were spending all of our time together.

C: Well, it was pretty easy because I had a 7 a.m., well, 7:30 a.m., class

K: Yeah

C: and like a 4:30 p.m. class, so I spent most of my day on campus, because I lived pretty far away, so you know going back home between classes just wasn’t realistic. And I think your situation was pretty much the same. You had some early morning classes, some afternoon classes. And so we’d spend every time that neither one of us had class just hanging out.

K: Yeah, and I didn’t always go to class. So—

C: Yeah, I know.

K: —we spent all of those times hanging out.

C: I know. That was horrifying to me. I mean, the irony of that with me having skipped econ every day….

K: Yes!

C: But I asked the instructor. (K laughs) I said “I already know this stuff, can I skip class?”

K: Yes.

C: And they said “Yes, but if you fail the test you’re going to fail the class.” and I said “I’m willing to live with that.”

K: Yeah. And so I remember we became fast friends, and then I remember when we started sleeping together and when we told our friend group, everyone was like “No. You guys are not,” and I’m like “We are! We’re sleeping together.”

C: Oh yeah. Yeah.

K: Because we weren’t actually a couple, we were just sleeping together. We were friends with benefits at that point in time.

C: Yep.

K: ‘Cause I feel like we were polyamorous and I had kind of a messy relationship that I had been trying to get out of for a year, and you were married to someone else.

C: I was. But I had moved out.

K: Yes. Because I was like, “You have to move out, I’m not going to be anybody’s mistress,” when I swy that okay, wait, this is going some place romantic. And I think it’s important to note that your wife knew that we were sleeping together because you guys had an open marriage.

C: Yes.

K: And I was sleeping with quite a few people, and everybody—while they didn’t know your name—they did know that someone new had, uh, “joined the team,” so to speak.

(Both laugh)

K: Because I was so… I’ve been very open that I’m pansexual and that means that I don’t… that I’m not attracted to genders, I’m attracted to people. That’s what it means for me. It might mean something for someone else. But pansexual for me means that I’m attracted to people, not genders. And it also means that I enjoy sleeping with couples. And I enjoy group sex activities. And so I had a couple couples I was seeing and I also had a couple singles I was seeing, and you were very aware of that when we started hanging out together.

C: Yeah, I was aware of it when we were friends. And I think that one of the reasons that we became a couple, and that we started sleeping together before we became a couple, was that I never judged you for it.

K: Well, I didn’t care whether or not people judged me. I’ve never cared. I’ve always felt like people are going to judge me.

C: Yeah.

K: And I just have decided a long time ago to not care.

C: Well, I just felt like that was your life and your business, and you were choosing to share it with me, but I didn’t feel any particular ownership.

K: Yeah, and I feel like if who I sleep with is none of your business unless you’re sleeping with me—

C: Right.

K: —and I always practiced safe sex. And I got regular STD screenings and all of that to be safe, and I’m very very happy that I don’t have any STDs, and I was very happy that you don’t have any STDs, because I also asked my partners to get regular STD screening.

C: Right.

K: Because it’s interesting that I was polyamorous but also a little bit of a germophobe.

C: Yes!

K: And I’ve always been like really afraid of HIV, because I grew up in the 80s and lost a lot of friends to that, and I’ve always been terrified of herpes. Like, I don’t want to get herpes. Now that I’ve grown and matured, I think there are worse things in like that can happen than getting herpes, but when I was sleeping with a lot of different people, those were the two big ones that I was most concerned about contracting.

C: Yeah. Well, and I, and just, you know, I know it’s early days yet in the podcast, but just in case anybody starts lusting after us—

(K laughs)

C: We are now monogamous.

K: That is so funny to me. I really don’t think anyone’s going to start lusting after us.

C: Well, just in case. We’re monogamous and have been for a very long time.

K: Yeah, ’cause I’m going to be 50 this year. I feel like the time for people lusting after… I’m 50. I’m married, I have an adult child.

C: Wow, you actually are going to be 50 this year.

K: Yeah, I know I’ve been calling myself 50 for three years.

C: No, you’ve been calling yourself 50 for seven years.

K: Oh, God, no… I didn’t start calling myself 50… I think 44, I started calling myself—

C: 43 you started calling yourself 50.

K: Really?

C: Yeah

K: That’s not how I remember it.

C: Because I’m 43 now (K laughs), and you were like “43 is closer to 45 than it is to 40, and once you’re 45, you’re 50.”

K: Yes. Because I like the gravitas of 50.

C: (laughing) Yes.

K: I just do. And I have gray hair now, so I don’t feel like I’m “past it,” I just feel like I don’t carry myself in a way that inspires lust. Because I have like basically the same clothes every day. I don’t wear makeup. My hair is up in a bun. I always wear jeans and a tank top and a button-down shirt over that, and I like look the same. And I’m more into being a therapist

C: Right.

K: than I’m into being a sex object, so I think I kind of work very hard to not be sexualized. And because of my history and because I used to be a sex worker, I really value not having a sexualized persona now. So that’s why I was laughing. Like, I’m actually working to prevent that. So…

C: Well, yeah, and I imagine that’s probably helpful with not getting the transference, if that’s what it’s called, from your clients as well.

K: Yeah.

C: You don’t, you don’t want that attraction from them.

K: Well, I have a very, very strong belief and view that for me to have sex with a client, for me, my understanding, my education informs me that that would be rape. Because they can’t truly consent because of the power dynamic.

C: Right.

K: And so I have had clients develop crushes on me, and I’m very clear to them, and we unpack it, we explore it, we talk about it, and usually by the end of the conversation they no longer have a crush on me.

C: Yep.

K: Because I do talk. Um. Because I am sex positive and kink positive and sex-worker positive, sometimes sex is a big part of the conversation. And working with couples, sex is usually a big part of the conversation. So, in talking about sex with me, sometimes my openness and my acceptance can cause a spark of attraction—

C: Right.

K: —And then we explore and explore how acceptance shouldn’t, for me, acceptance shouldn’t lead to attraction. You shouldn’t be attracted to everyone who accepts you. And there’s usually something deeper going on there. So, yeah, I work really hard to not be a sexual entity anymore. And I’m so in like my mom space, and my wife space, and…

C: Your professional space. It’s just not…

K: Yeah, my life is so about other things now.

C: It’s not something you share with the world anymore.

K: Correct. And so to me, when like people are attracted to me, I’m like “no, there’s something else going on.”

(both laugh)

K: “It’s not that you actually want to have sex with me. There’s something else going on. It’s an emotional thing, rather than like actually wanting to have sex with me.” So I think that the history of us, I really love our history, and I really love that… because you’re a member of the ACCJ, and one of the ACCJ members said that we’re in the…

C: …in the “cupcake phase.”

K: And I love that!

C: Yeah, so I was at a barbecue, a fall barbecue, and he’s married and he was talking to—he was hitting on—some of the women there

K: Which is such a tragedy to me.

C: Yeah. And he said “Well, and there’s Chad. Chad and Kisstopher they’re still in the cupcake phase of their marriage.” (K laughs) And so now, yes, yes, that’s right. We are in the cupcake phase.

K: Yes, we are happily happily married. And I think it’s because our marriage, as hokey and corny as it sounds, I really did marry my best friend.

C: Yes.

K: And there have been times when our friendship, in our marriage with it being, you know we’re two decades in, there have been times in the marriage that it was the friendship that kept the marriage going.

C: I think so. I mean, ’cause, I mean, I almost never talk about her, but my first wife I felt like I was intellectually compatible with, but we weren’t really friends in the way that you and I were friends.

K: Yeah.

C: And so it barely lasted a year, that marriage. And, you know, I wish her well, but I haven’t talked to her since we got divorced.

K: And my first wife, because yes, I was married to a woman before, umm, you and I got together, but she was not my most recent relationship. In my first marriage I feel like there were some serious compatibility issues. We were together five years, but we were only married for one. And it wasn’t legal, but… we were married in Reno, and at the time, because she had a mustache and goatee, they didn’t look at the gender on her driver’s license, and they issued us a marriage license and we were able to get married.

C: Oops! (K laughs)

K: So it wasn’t… it was legal, but it wasn’t legal, so when we tried to get a divorce and all of that, they were like…

C: Yeah, when you and I got married we asked the lawyer who was handling my divorce, like what do we do about yours.

K: And she was so confused.

C: She was like, “It was never legal, so there’s nothing to do.”

K: Yeah. And my ex never… I did actually serve my ex with divorce papers that they never signed.

C: Yeah.

K: So… that marriage wasn’t legal, so we didn’t really go through a divorce, and we’re still, we’re still friends.

C: Yeah.

K: We’re still friendly. I don’t know if we’re friends. If you’re listening to this, you owe me an email.

(both laugh)

K: But I still have, just, a lot of love in my heart for them and you get along with them really well.

C: Yeah. Yep.

K: So, but my most recent ex before we got together, it was very tumultuous and painful and so it’s so confusing because I went from. So, to make it less confusing, I was with a woman for five years, and I kind of have a habit of switching genders in between relationships.

C: The gender of your partner, right?

K: Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, the gender of my partner, not mine. And I was with a man, and we were together for five years, and then at the end of that relationship is when I started being polyamorous and dating lots of couples and just living my best life because I didn’t want a relationship after that because it was really painful and twisted and bad. Who we were when we were together was just toxic. It was just a sad, toxic relationship.

C: Yeah, and I think that’s… and that just makes me think that I love being in love with you and I love being married to you, but I don’t think that you can’t… let me not do the double-negative thing. I think you can have a rich and fulfilling life being single.

K: Yes, I do, too.

C: And I think you can have a rich and fulfilling life having kids or not having kids.

K: I do, too.

C: So, yeah, I… but you were saying?

K: (laughs) Did you lose your train of thought?

C: I did. I did.

K: Okay. So I felt really happy and fulfilled in what I was doing and so when we met I wasn’t looking for a relationship but I think I low-key was.

C: Mmhmm.

K: Because I had did that, um, there was this thing going around on the Internet and, at that time, it was right when email had just started, and I got a chain letter in the email that said “fill this out, and then send it to ten people,” and the thing that you were supposed to fill out was who the person of your dreams was.

C: Right.

K: And, interesting to me, and this is what caused us to get together, is when we were sitting in the cafeteria at De Anza and I was reading my list, and I looked up and you jokingly said that you were my list.

C: Yes.

K: And when I looked up, it felt like I was looking at you with completely fresh eyes, like the veils were taken off my eyes. Because the #1 thing that I had on my list was “dark chocolate.” (C laughs) I wanted, like, I wanted a man that was so dark that his skin was purple.

C: Uh-huh.

K: Like so black he’s purple. And, so, for me, I just, I was really focused on having an African-American partner. And I hadn’t considered non African-Americans for partnership. And I had been with non African-Americans before, and I’d been with African-Americans. I was equal opportunity. I had just always assumed that my life partner would be Black.

C: Right.

K: And, when you said, “hey, that list describes me,” I was like, “Snap. It does.” And that’s when your race was no longer an issue for me in terms of dating.

C: I remember that.

K: (laughs) And it was a lot of, I had to do a lot of work, and education, because I had dated white women, but I had never dated a white man. And so it was surprising and interesting to me how, like, I thought I understood dating white people because I had dated lots of white girls.

C: Right.

K: But dating a white guy is so different. And I had slept with lots of white guys. But I have never actually coupled with…

C: Uh-huh.

K: …and had a relationship with a white guy. But there was just so much stuff you didn’t know.

C: Well, I mean, I think the family that I met, because I met a lot of your family, but it was all on your dad’s side.

K: Yeah.

C: So, and you know your dad’s side is African-American and Black and Indigenous, and there’s a lot of different mix on that side.

K: Yeah. And European.

C: But I didn’t ever meet anybody from your mom’s side. I still haven’t, to this day, met anybody from your mom’s side.

K: Because we’ve never been to Alabama.

C: Right.

K: They’re all in Alabama.

C: So when I met you, you were like, you know I think it was like three or four months after we met, you finally said something to me about “Why don’t you ever ask me like what ethnicity I am?”

K: Yes. ‘Cause you’re one of the few people in my life that haven’t asked me what my ethnic background is. Because being multi-racial, usually people will ask me “What are you?” And I always think, “I’m human.”

C: Mmhmm.

K: I’m human. I’m a woman. I’m human. What do you mean? And I usually make it uncomfortable for them because I wish people would get to know me, because I feel like if you get to know me, then all of that history will come out when it’s relevant.

C: Right. And I always find that interesting because I see people ask you, “Where are you from?” and you’re like, “I’m from California.” “Well, but where are your parents from?”

K: Yeah.

C: And you’re like, “Oklahoma.” “But but where are you…” and then it’s fun for me to cut in with “Yeah, no, she’s like American from the way back. But me, my grandma came from Norway and both my grandpas came from England.”

K: Yeah.

C: So, you know, I’m second-generation American from three of my four grandparents.

K: Yeah, and so they find it really frustrating, and I wish people would just be honest that they want to know what my ethnic background is.

C: Yep.

K: And, so I don’t… sometimes it bugs me, and sometimes it doesn’t. It just depends on my mood that day.

C: Yeah.

K: And the fact that you had never asked me was really, really nice for me. Because, interesting enough, on the list of what I wanted in a man—because I did want it to be a male partner, at that time I had decided that I wanted my life partner to be male—and so for me one of the things that was really important was that he had to love my hair.

C: Mmhmm.

K: Because I have really curly hair, and one of the partners I had before, I had straightened my hair for New Year’s Eve, and it was just for New Year’s Eve, I don’t like straightening my hair, and they would just complain and complain that I never straightened my hair. And she drove me nuts with that. Like, I stopped seeing her because of that. (C laughs) Like, she asked one too many times why don’t I straighten my hair, and I was like okay, I’m done with you ’cause you’re annoying. And I had a couple that I had stopped seeing because they were in love with my curly hair, like, so when people would become obsessed with my hair, it felt like they were fetishizing my hair.

C: Exoticizing you?

K: Yeah. And I just didn’t like it. And the fact that you didn’t was refreshing for me. Because this is happening on both sides of the fence with all the different races that I was dating, and I was dating a melting pot of people. So even African-Americans, people with Latin history, people with Asian history, people with Caucasian history, just all the different races were always obsessed on my skin color, my eyes, and my hair. And I just. ‘Cause I have hazel eyes, and so sometimes they look green, sometimes they look blue, and just fixating on those things. And you never did.

C: Well I think, maybe because I’m autistic or I don’t know why, I’m just not a very visual person. So, like the, I, when we met, I thought you were good-looking, but that was not a factor in my attraction to you. It was our conversations. It was our friendship that made me attracted to you.

K: Yeah.

C: And so I, I just, when my friends met you they were like “Wow, she is smoking hot!” (K laughs)

K: Thank you!

C: Yes. You know. “How are you guys getting together?”

K: But all of my people thought you were incredibly hot. And I think you’re smoking hot, too.

C: Thank you.

K: I’ve always thought you were incredibly handsome. And your facial hair is just absolutely stunning.

C: Thank you.

K: Yeah, it’s stunning.

C: I often see people stunned by it (K laughs) walking down the street.

K: It’s so funny now because I was totally impressed with your beard when we first met.

C: Oh, yeah, pictures of it now, it’s like “That patchy little thing?”

K: Yeah! So because it was like, it did cover your entire jaw but it wasn’t like Beard. I feel like now you have a capital-B Beard.

C: Yeah, I got somebody telling me, for the first time, like a month ago that “You’ve got a ZZ Top beard”, and I’m like, “I’ve arrived.”

K: Yeah, but I don’t think you have a ZZ Top beard. It’s only midway down your chest.

C: Yeah, and this is probably as long as it ever gets. It tends to fall out.

K: Yeah, it breaks off, so. You’re not getting a ZZ Top beard.

C: See, I knew you weren’t going to let me have it.

(K laughs)

K: No, that’s Mother Nature not letting you have it. That’s your genetics. ‘Cause your beard breaks off.

C: So, and when we met I had long hair.

K: Yeah, you did.

C: So, I think this is a funny story. When we met I had long hair, but I was balding. I’d been balding since I was 14.

K: No, I think maybe 16?

C: No, you’ve seen the pictures. From 14.

K: Okay, I thought you were 16 in those pictures.

C: No, some of them I’m only 14.

K: Okay.

C: So, I’ve been balding since I was 14, but I had long hair, and I had a pony tail.

K: Which I did not like.

C: Yeah. I also had a convertible. So I was always combing my hair, just like ripping through it. And that horrified you. And you said “You should shave your head.” Oh, and I had dyed my hair red! I forgot about that.

K: Yes, your hair was red.

C: I forgot about that. Because I only ever dyed it once in my life. I dyed it red just before I started, just before we met. And I said “Well, okay, if ten people tell me they think I’d look better bald, then I’ll let you shave my head.”

K: Yes.

C: And I think it took you like a day to find ten people. (both laugh)

K: Yes. I would just ask people “Wouldn’t he look good bald? Don’t you think Chad should shave his head?” Yeah, and then I shaved your head.

C: Yeah.

K: And it’s so so funny, to me, the funniest thing that ever happened when we were getting together was when you drove over to my ex’s house and they rode up on a bike…

C: Yes!

K: So do you want to tell the story?

C: No!

K: Okay, so they rode up on a bike and they came up and they were like “Who the fuck are”. We shouldn’t cuss. “Who the f are you?” ‘Cause we want to have like a G-rated. “Who are you? What are you doing here?” All of this, and like, banging on your door, and you got out of your car and they rode away.

C: Okay, but wait, so you want to have a G-rated, even though we’re going to talk about sex work and all of that kind of stuff?

K: (laughing) Okay, yeah, I don’t think we’re going to be able to have a G rating. But I’m trying not to curse.

C: Okay, okay.

K: I’m trying not to curse, but that one came out. I don’t know, ’cause I haven’t decided yet. Are we cursing, or not?

C: Yeah, I think we are, but you know I’m not a gratuitous curser.

K: Yeah.

C: I always have a reason when I do it.

(K laughs)

K: And I’m a gratuitous curser.

C: Yeah.

K: The F word is like my favorite word.

C: So between the two of us we’re probably average.

K: Yeah. There you go.

C: Yeah, so he rode up on his bike, and I was waiting outside with another friend of ours…

K: Yeah.

C: And, he was like “Who are you? I’m gonna kick your ass,” and, like… you know I’m six inches taller. A hundred pounds heavier. And, the person I was with, a woman, is… 6’2″? 6’3″?

K: No, I don’t think she was 6’2″.

C: She was at least 6’2″.

K: Really?

C: Yeah.

K: Okay.

C: Yeah, she’s at least 6’2″

K: With a black belt

C: With a black belt in Tae… like,

K: …and enjoys violence.

C: And enjoys violence. Enjoys telling people.

K: Yeah. Enjoys stomping a fool.

C: Yeah. I want to tell a brief story.

K: Okay.

C: We’re not going to say her name. But she had come over to my apartment (K starts laughing) to hang out, she’d come over to my apartment to hang out, and I had plans later, so I wasn’t going to be able to drive her home. This is when I was driving, before I got diagnosed with epilepsy and they said “well, you know, we’re not going to take your license, but if you get in an accident and you hurt somebody, you’re going to jail for murder because you know that you shouldn’t drive.”

K: Yeah.

C: Which I thought was totally irresponsible of them. But, so she had called a taxi to take her home. And then, my plans fell through, so I was like “I could drive you home.” So we’re walking to my car, and the taxi pulls up. Doesn’t know what she looks like. Doesn’t know who they’re looking for. (K laughs) And she says “Hey, I don’t want you anymore!” And the taxi driver gets upset. And she says “Don’t make me snatch you through that window and break you in half!”

K: Yes. But interestingly enough, it was that event that made you decide you couldn’t be with her.

C: Yes.

K: Because there was five of us girls in the group, and each one of the girls wanted to partner with you.

C: Yes.

K: And I waited until you went through all of them.

C: So, by “went through” you mean rejected.

K: Yes.

C: Because I…

K: You didn’t sleep with any of them.

C: No.

K: If you had slept with any of them, I… we wouldn’t have gotten together because for me I just don’t like sleeping with people my friends have slept with unless it was a group sex activity.

C: Yep. (both laugh)

K: Unless it happens at the same time.

C: Which, not saying who, but some of them wanted to try that.

K: Yes, and so, because I remember calling you up when you were in a business meeting and saying “Hey, do you want to have a threesome this weekend?” (both laughing)

C: Yes.

K: And you were like, “Umm, I’m in a business meeting,” and I was like “Yeah, okay, whatever but do you want to have a threesome this weekend?”

C: Now, I would say “Let’s discuss this later.” Which means it’s probably what I said then, because I haven’t changed very much in my responses.

K: Yeah, you did say “let’s discuss this later,” and then when we talked about it, the third person who was supposed to be the third chickened out and was like no, they didn’t want to. And so I was like “okay,” and so the reason they had asked me to ask you if you wanted to have a threesome is because they were afraid to find out whether or not you were sexually attracted to them.

C: Right.

K: Because they were really insecure. And then when they found out that you were attracted to them, they just did a bunch of really … I felt shady things.

C: Mmhmm.

K: In terms of having you go shopping and buy them things and, a lot of stuff that made you feel not good about partnering with them. So it was interesting to me to watch everybody kind of burn their bridges with you.

C: Yep.

K: And, it was also very comforting to me emotionally to watch people burn their bridges with you. And just see what I think of as your sexual integrity.

C: Mmhmm.

K: In terms of just not sleeping with people you don’t like.

C: Right.

K: And, to be clear, I was sleeping with people I didn’t like at the time, so I felt like you had better sexual integrity than I did. And it made me really start to reflect and think about, you know, who I was sleeping with.

C: Mmhmm.

K: And why am I sleep with them if I don’t enjoy their company?

C: Right.

K: And I really just, for me, I feel like I became a better person with more self-respect through knowing you.

C: I feel like I’ve had that for myself, too. I feel like now than I was when we met.

K: Yeah, and so to me that’s the story of us. Is that I’m a much better person now than when we met, and that’s for knowing you.

C: That’s nice! Yeah, and I feel like that’s why the story continues. Because I think I’m going to continue to become a better person.

K: I think I feel the same way.

C: Because I’m not perfect. A lot of people tell me I am.

K: I think you’re perfect.

C: Right.

K: I tell you you’re perfect all the time. You ain’t gotta change a thing.

C: But I know that part of what I value so much in our relationship is that the wedding vow that we made to each other, which maybe we’ll tell the story of our wedding another time because it’s funny, I think—

K: Yeah, it is.

C: —But the wedding vow that we made to each other is that we would always continue to grow and change.

K: Yes.

C: It wasn’t “love, honor, and obey”, it was that we would always grow and change, and that we would always treat each other as a friend.

K: Yes. And I feel like we’re still doing that today. And I feel like we did that during the hard years. Because we did have some hard years in our marriage.

C: Yeah.

K: And so, for me, I’m grateful that you stuck around through the hard years.

C: I’m grateful you stuck around, too.

K: Yeah, I’m happy. I’m happy here and now, baby.

C: Yeah? (both laugh) Me too, I’m happy here and now. And we hope that you are happy here and now, listening.

K: Yes, we hope all our listeners are happy here and now, living their best life.

C: And come back next week for more.

K: Yep, talk to you then.

C: Bye-bye.