K: So, lately I’ve been thinking about being a public figure in the United States and – versus being a public figure in Japan, and I feel like my I’m kind of almost famous in both countries because, in the U.S. I – for a time – I was really well known in California and New York, and for an even smaller time, I was really well known in London. And here in Japan, I’m pretty well-known in Japan. So, it’s – for different reasons and a very different feeling – something I don’t know about you: were you ever sort of semi-famous in the U.S.?

C: I’m massively famous in the U.S.

K: (laughs)

C: I was never semi-famous. I just skipped over from nobody to incredibly famous.

K: (laughs)

C: I think my brush with fame… was that… I was once part of the top 10 world’s most useless pages. My personal webpage was like number 2 on World’s Most Useless Pages.

K: What are you talking about?

C: I’m talking about before Google.

K: Okay.

C: In, like, 1998, 99, Yahoo had these lists of things.

K: Mhm.

C: One of the lists was world’s most useless webpages, and mine was number 2.

K: That’s really cool. I think in high school, you were kind of locally famous.

C: I mean, yeah, in high school people knew who I was, but I came from a small town, so… I think I made the newspaper once because I had been walking down the street reading a book.

K: Okay.

C: And somebody from the newspaper thought that was interesting.

K: I was thinking more like your academic success rather than your random writeup success.

C: Yeah, my academic success – I was like 158^th in a class of 200 or so.

K: You were not

C: I was, yeah. My grades were so, so bad. That’s why I was at De Anza.

K: Was that right after your mom died?

C: It was – yeah, my mom died while I was in high school.

K: Yeah, so… but you were two years ahead. You skipped two years.

C: Yeah.

K: So, I thought that might’ve made you famous. And like, you’re a master debater. (laughs)

C: Thank you.

K: You’re welcome. (laughs) I snorted.

C: When I was a senior in high school, I was the lead in a school play. So, I’ve had my brush with fame.

K: So, for me, I’ve been what some people would consider, like, super famous and would envy my experiences and wonder why I didn’t make choices – different choices. Because I’ve been on several t.v. shows – like, interviewed on several t.v. shows – I was the top pinup model for a while, like retro 50s pinup… and I was the star dancer at several different clubs. And then I was cast on the first season of that MTV show – what’s

C: Real World.

K: Yeah. And I didn’t do it. I went, and I was like

C: And thank goodness.

K: Yeah. I went, and I was like, “this is too much” – just for the ramp up to the show.

C: Yeah.

K: I was like, “this is too much. I can’t – I can’t do this.” And then… VH1, back when it was an underground basement thing, offered me my own fashion show. And then MTV followed up with an offer, and I said no to both of those. And I was on a billboard, and I was above several gay bars as like the… picture. And then I was the lead model in a Just Leathers campaign. And what’s really interesting about this, for me, is that I was excommunicated from the Catholic church even though I’m not Catholic because one of (laughs) this is so horrible. You guys are probably gonna hate me after this.

But I did a risqué sex pose in… BDSM gear on the altar of a very iconic and – it’s a landmark church in San Francisco. And then that was seen in London, it was made into a billboard, and it was like everywhere because the scandal was just so amazing. And, like, the Catholic church condemned me and cast me out. And I thought that’s really awesome. I’ve never been… part of the church, but… it’s really cool. And I’ve met scads and scads of famous people, and… I was so well known at the time that Madonna requested to meet me to go on the Vogue tour – the Blond Ambition tour – and be in the Truth or Dare movie. And it – it was just like “no. I can’t do this.” I’m allergic to fame. It just terrifies me. And I think that’s because I’ve had stalkers my whole life, and I’m like, “this is just gonna get worse.”

C: Yeah.

K: And… during that time of like… a famous celebrity had recently been murdered by a stalker, and I was like, “this is too much. I can’t do it.” And I didn’t have anybody with me that I could trust. I didn’t have an anchor person that could drop their life and just come with me on all of these… journeys, and I always feel like, for my personality, I’ve always needed an anchor person. And that’s something that I like about you so much is that I do feel really… moored with you.

C: I did have a brief stint being famous at the person who stole you away.

K: (laughs) That is so funny. I think you’ve been famous here in Nagoya. And I think you’ve been famous in Tokyo, but in academic circles.

C: Yeah, I think

K: I think you’re famous in academia. And, so for me, I think since your PHD, you’re like internationally – you’re an internationally renowned mathematician.

C: Yeah…

K: Literally, an internationally renowned mathematician.

C: Yeah, I got written up in some German newspapers when I was there, and like… I guess.

K: What are you guessing about? You went to a private thinktank with only the most elite.

C: Yeah.

K: You know the top – all of the top people in your field know you by first and last name, like know you personally. Tragically, one of the leaders that was working on the encyclopedia for the math stuff passed away. We’re really missing him quite a bit. But you’re really well known. And just – you don’t want to travel to give talks, and that’s why you don’t travel giving talks on math. But you’ve been invited to Boston, you’ve been invited to Russia. You were invited to Germany and went. You were invited – was it Denmark or Holland?

C: Denmark. And I spoke in Russia, just virtually.

K: Okay. So, how are you not famous – how are you not a world-renowned mathematician?

C: In my circle, I’m famous. I guess. In my circle

K: In your circle… it’s a pretty big circle. In your circle of 7 different countries.

C: Yeah, but… I don’t know. I’m not an academic anymore, so I’m like out of the math game as far as being known.

K: But there was a time when you were really famous.

C: Yeah, there was a time. When I was an officer of the American Chamber of Commerce in Japan, so there was that. And… yeah. I guess. People know my name.

K: What I find interesting is that, when we first moved to Japan, one of the things I liked about it is that Japan has really strict stalking laws. And you can just report somebody for stalking you.

C: Now, yeah. They had been put in place pretty recently before we came.

K: But even when we first moved here, their laws were stronger than in the U.S.

C: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. They were pretty new when we moved here.

K: Yeah.

C: There was a – a stalking murder case in like the late 90s that had prompted some changes.

K: So, in the United States, I would have people come by my house and leave things in my mailbox. And… or on my front – my front doorstep or what have you, and I would tell people this is unwanted attention. And they were like, “there’s nothing we can do about it.” And I had one police officer tell me once, “you’re a young, beautiful woman, what do you expect?”

C: Mhm.

K: You know, like me being beautiful was cause enough for anyone to stalk me. And I just… that stuck with me so much, and I think… because I was emancipated and I became an adult at 16, all of these things were happening to me when I was 16. Like, I wrote a check at the grocery store, and the cashier started calling me up and harassing me because, back then – which is wild to me now – on your check, you would have your address and phone number printed. On your check. So, everybody you gave a check to

C: That is still the case.

K: Is it?

C: Yeah. Some people don’t have their phone number, but people have their address.

K: Really?

C: Yeah. We just don’t use checks because

K: Well, and we don’t live in the U.S.

C: Right.

K: Really?

C: Yes, really.

K: That is wild to me.

C: The intent is that you can verify it by checking it against their I.D. to make sure – but really only the numbers on the bottom are important, which is why check forgery is so rampant. So, people are like, “protect your financial information.” Okay, if me paying you lets you steal from me…

K: Yeah.

C: That doesn’t seem like a good system.

K: No.

C: Because in Japan’s system, you can give anybody your banking information because it’s inbound only. Giving them your… your banking information doesn’t tell them anything about how to get money from you.

K: Yeah.

C: Only about how to give money to you.

K: Yeah. So, I had the person calling me and stalking me, and that really shook me because, at first, I didn’t know who they were. And I would always go to the store at the same time.

C: Yeah.

K: And there was only one register at that time. And then they said something that I was able to – it was kind of a slip – but I was able to figure out it was them.

C: Mhm.

K: And so, I reported them and got them fired, and then they started harassing me. Leaving harassing – aggressive notes on my door, and it just escalated. And the police never did anything, but… my mother, who if you’re a Musick Note know is one of the most violent people on earth, did something. And… after my mother had a conversation with them – I don’t know what my mother said, but throughout most of my life, I have so many stories that end with “after my mother had a conversation with them, I didn’t have any more problems.” And… when I was given these opportunities, my mother… for the – here’s the weird thing.

Like, my mother made me feel the most unsafe and safest when I was with her. Like, I felt completely unsafe with her but safe from everybody else. And my mother really wanted me to do the… the Blond Ambition tour. And I didn’t wanna do it. And it turned into a big argument because my mother really wanted to be a stage mom.

C: Mhm.

K: And I just felt like it was going to be so… exploitive.

C: And then it was.

K: It really was. Because where are those dancers now?

C: Yeah.

K: You know. And that’s – and then, like, I was… I met a lot of really famous people, and they were always wanting me to do projects with them, but it was so clear to me that it was never my project. It was always their project. And then when I started getting offered my own projects, I don’t know, it just felt like a trap.

C: Mhm.

K: Because looking at the budgets for the shows that I was offered, I knew that I couldn’t get a wardrobe for that let alone any sort of talent and stuff.

C: Right.

K: So, I think a lot of people don’t know how much money goes into becoming famous. And if you don’t have a seamstress that works for you, it’s really, really hard because… wardrobe is not covered. I had a really great friend that I was their wardrobe person because I had a better wardrobe than them. And they had a T.V. show, and I would give them pieces of my clo – from my wardrobe to wear – which is sort of what made them think that I should have my own show. Is because I had this amazing wardrobe, I was… I had like the typical 90s aesthetic. Black hair, red lips, that kind of thing. And… I don’t know. I guess seeing – seeing my friends struggle who were on that fame game chase, it just really put me off.

C: I think that’s the – that we haven’t talked about a lot on here, but… you and I have talked a lot about where some jobs really keep you from leaving that job.

K: Yeah.

C: They trap you in it. You saying about the wardrobe reminds me of when a group of people working at Saks Fifth Avenue sued Saks because Saks had said, “you have to wear our wardrobe.”

K: Yeah.

C: “To work here.” And they were reporting spending like ten thousand dollars a year out of their thirty-thousand-dollar salary… on clothing from their employer.

K: Yeah.

C: And that’s just…  you basically can’t save up, you can’t leave. And I’ve seen… so-called business leaders do this – do that to people here in Japan. Where they intentionally sabotage any chance they have of leaving.

K: Yeah.

C: And that just seems wrong to me. But when we met, your mother had died already.

K: Yes.

C: And… Kisstopher is talking to a bug. Giving it dirty looks.

K: Chad is – why do you broadcast what I’m doing? They can’t see me. They can’t hear what I’m doing.

C: Because later, when that bug comes around, I’m going to smack it. And they’ll know.

K: Okay. It’s the one I said, “we have a bug.”

C: Yeah.

K: But it’s not the mosquito that bit my finger.

C: Okay.

K: It’s a different kind of bug.

C: But you had a bunch of stalkers when we met.

K: Yeah. I did.

C: And I talked to them and was like, “yo, that’s not cool.”

K: Yeah. You talked to a couple of them.

C: Yeah.

K: But to no effect.

C: Yeah. You moving had a lot more effect.

K: Yeah.

C: You got people saying, “you don’t live where you used to.”

K: Yeah. And so, my – my stalking situation was so bad that I was able to join a program called Safe At Home where mail didn’t even come directly to me.

C: Yeah. It went to Sacramento.

K: It would go to them. Yeah. And then they would forward it to me. And that’s how we got all of the information of like, “where did you go? Why did you leave me?” All of this really crazy stuff. And you were like, “wow, your life is way less safe than even I knew.” And I was like, “eh.” And you were like, “no. It’s not an ‘eh’ these people are seriously stalking you and looking for you. Hunting you.” And I was like, “yeah, but they’re harmless. They’ve been my stalker for 8 years and they’ve stalked me over 3 cities, and… 4 houses, and it’s not a big deal.” (laughs)

C: Yeah. Your resignation to it was surprising because – I think about your front door, for example.

K: Yeah. We’ve talked about me not having a lock on my front door.

C: Yeah. So, you had a lock if you were inside. So, you could lock it if you were there.

K: Yeah. I would lock it if I was home.

C: But otherwise, you’d be like, “well, you know, that way if people come by the neighbors will know because they’ll be there for long enough, and they’re not gonna break the door or anything.”

K: Yeah.

C: I was like, “uh-uh. Fuck that.”

K: And people would like leave me stuff and rearrange my stuff and…

C: I was like, “uh-huh. Fuck that.” I went to Home Depot and bought a doorknob and put it on.

K: Yeah.

C: And then your landlord was like, “I can’t come into your apartment anymore when you are out.” Like… you’re another fucking stalker?

K: (laughs) Yeah. So, for me, I guess… I’ve always felt like I was prone to being stalked. And… it’s one of the things that my – a lot of my clients would ask me, “what happened to you?” When they would get my – because I would send to every new client, I would send them the intake form, and then I would send them a sheet called “rates and services” and on the rates and services, it has the conditions of service written in there.

C: Right.

K: And one of them is if you try to find out where I live, if you follow me – it’s like a whole list of descriptions of different ways to be stalked. And clients would ask me, “what happened to you? Why is that in there?” I’d say, “I’m prone to stalkers.” And there have been people that I’m like, “mm. I can’t be your therapist.” And I would tell them honestly that I am prone to stalking, that I think they have stalker tendencies, and that makes me a bad fit for them. I don’t know what it is about me that makes people want to stalk me. But… it’s an issue I have.

And they would become very upset. And I’ve had some of the people – I’ve had to talk to them because they’re like waiting downstairs for me as I get off of work, and I’m like, “this is exactly what I was talking about. What I was afraid was going to happen. And it’ll only be worse, and you need to get help because this is illegal, and I’m not the right therapist for you.”

C: Yeah.

K: So… that’s always interesting. And then being written up in the newspaper and being on several different… shows that no longer exist in Japan anymore – I think the pandemic killed them – I had people… like, start a fan – sort of a fan following and fan grouping of mee. And… I – I seriously, I don’t know what it is. When I was younger, I thought it was because I was thin, I was like… what people would describe as the aesthetic. And now, I’m like – I’m fat, I’m old. I’m not the aesthetic anymore. I don’t know what it is. I think there’s something about me that makes – something about my energy. I don’t know. Am I welcoming it? That kind of thinking goes on.

C: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s… it’s a tricky thing because I think that people get groomed to be victims.

K: Yeah.

C: Which is not the same thing as saying they are responsible for it or that they deserve it.

K: Yeah.

C: But I do think that… predators are taught to look for certain signs, and stalkers look for certain signs that they will be able to get away with it.

K: Yeah.

C: And you give off those signs.

K: Yeah. So, Chad is not saying that I deserve it. But there is something… and he and I have talked about it before. And so, if… and this is really clear. It’s not blaming the victim. And I’m not saying that I’m… helpless in this. I’m saying that, over the years, I’ve been conditioned to not respect my own privacy. And that openness and willingness to not respect my own privacy – people look for those types of things. Those types of guards that aren’t just naturally up. And I’ve found that, in Japan, they’ve come up. And they’ve been up. And I – when I was a mom, that kind of stopped a lot of it. Like, if anything for my kid – it’s hard and it’s down.

And I find that, when he moved out of the house – out of our house – I had to sort of relearn that protection to protect myself and to value myself as much as I valued him. And as much as I valued his space and his privacy. And I’ve always been really quick to be like, “that person’s going to stalk you.” I can spot a stalker. And I’ve always told him, “stalking will ruin your life. Being stalked will ruin your life.” It didn’t ruin my life because I just didn’t care. And I think I should’ve. I think I should’ve cared more.

C: And I think it really affected your life. I think, looking back, you’re like, “I’m good where I’m at now.”

K: Yeah.

C: “So it must not have ruined my life.” But I remember the anxiety that you were experiencing from being stalked.

K: Yes. It was really hard to find… notes – like, to come out of – it would take me out of myself. I would come out of class, go to my car, and there would be a note on my car. And I’d just be like, “why? What’s the purpose of this?”

C: Yes.

K: And it was just too much. And…

C: And you missed classes sometimes. You’d be like, “come with me. We’ve gotta go hide. One of my stalkers is trying to find me at my class.”

K: Yeah. So, it was very disruptive. And… it was tough because some famous people kind of hard that energy about me as well.

C: Yeah.

K: And so, they’re famous and wealthy – I’m not gonna say who because… it was years and years ago. Dealt with it. And… that was tough. And it was hard for me, and people were like, “you know, you’re just made for fame.” And I’m like, “actually, I don’t think I am.” I really believe that if I had gone the route or taken on those shows, one I wouldn’t have made any money. I was making way more money than what they were offering doing what I was doing. And, two… it just felt like being pigeonholed and trapped. Because I saw so many of my friends that did have T.V. shows – two or three of my friends had their own T.V. shows – and Emmy award winning T.V. shows, and they didn’t make – they made barely enough money to live in the city that they lived in. They didn’t have any budget for wardrobe, and… they didn’t get reimbursed for travel when they would do on-location stuff. It was really weird. And really exploitive.

C: Yeah.

K: The contracts.

C: The prestige of certain jobs is weird. I had a recruiter be really… assertive a while ago that they could get me a job at Amazon.

K: Mhm.

C: I was like, “but I don’t want to work at Amazon”

K: Yeah.

C: “And they are offering less money than I make now.”

K: Yeah.

C: For much worse work conditions. But the recruiter was insistent, “but it’s Amazon.” I don’t give a fuck.

K: Yeah.

C: That doesn’t make my life better. Like, people being, “oh, Amazon.” I’m going to quietly make my money, quietly have my job, and not worrying about impressing anybody. Because the same way that people like to stalk you, it wasn’t as big a problem for me because it was much more… transitory. But there was a long time where guys like… wanted to fight me.

K: Yeah. That was weird to me. I – because your energy is so mellow, even here in Japan. It’s like, “let’s arm wrestle.” What? You both – do you not see him in a three-piece suit? What about this man says he’s ready to arm wrestle? And like, too, your energy is so gentle and so soft. And you’re like the most likable person. And I think that’s what pisses people off is they see you being liked, and they’re like, “I’m going to make you unlikeable by getting in a fight with you.”

C: Yeah. I think they see me being liked but still getting things. Because I’ve had guys tell me – and I’ve had one particular short, Irish American guy tell me

K: (laughs) No, you didn’t just read him like that.

C: Oh, yeah.

K: So, sorry but it’s relevant. We don’t have anything against short guys. Our son is short, I’m short, but it’s not a big deal. But this person makes a big deal out of their height, which wouldn’t be a thing to anyone. Like, I did not think about his height – because he’s shorter than I am – I did not think about his height until he pointed out to me that… I may be taller than him, but he’s greater in stature. And I was like, “who even talks like that? What are you even saying to me right now?” I have – I still to this day don’t know what he meant by that. Like…

C: I don’t know because he

K: And why did he feel threatened?

C: I don’t know because it was a case where we were both in business suits at a business thing, and he was like, “I know you’re 8 inches taller than me, 140 pounds heavier, but I could kick your ass at wrestling.” So what? Like, I’m not sure this is true, but so what?

K: Yeah, and he would do that, too. He would guess, like, how much taller and how much more you weighed than him. And I was just like, “one, you got my weight wrong. And two, I’m not sure if I’m a full two inches taller than you.”

C: Mhm.

K: “I don’t know where you’re getting these numbers from.” And he really didn’t – he got my number weigh lower. I weighed way more than he thought I did, and it was so weird to me. This aggression is coming out of nowhere. We’re not drinking alcohol. I’m just standing there having a conversation with somebody about food in Japan, and this person walks up and says, “hey. Let me talk to you for a minute.” And I was like, okay. Cool.

Because we’re both in the same – same business club because they have sub-clubs in the American Chamber of Business. And… he was like, “you know. I just want you to know that you may be, you know, a couple inches taller than me and some pounds bigger than me, but… of the two of us, I have the greater stature.” And I didn’t know what he meant by that. That was so confusing.

C: Right? You don’t know the definition of the word stature, for one thing.

K: Right? And it made no sense. Why did you interrupt my conversation? Like, I was having a vibe.

C: So, he told me that it wasn’t fair that I was a nice guy and still got things because being a nice guy had never gotten him anything except friend zoned.

K: Wow.

C: And my response to that, that I didn’t say to him because I am a nice guy

K: Yeah.

C: Was “you are one of the biggest assholes I’ve ever met.”

K: Truly. Truly. And I think they listen to this podcast. And yes, boo, we are talking about you. Because they hate listen. Which is so weird.

C: Right?

K: I didn’t think anybody would hate – I joked about like – we’ve joked about it. Y’all Musick Notes know that I always joke about, “I don’t care if you hate listen.” I said it more in the earlier episodes because I just wanted anybody to listen. We have several people in Japan who hate me now. I’ve done nothing to them, but they completely hate me, and they hate listen to the podcast. So, I find that I’m still…

C: A public figure.

K: Yeah. And I don’t – I don’t seek it. And I never thought that being a therapist – because being a therapist in the United States, there’s so many of us.

C: Right.

K: I think the sheer numbers – I just kind of get lost. And I was a specialist in the United States. And it just – I just got lost.

C: Even among the specialists, you weren’t that… unusual.

K: Yeah. Because I specialed in early childhood development, and I specialized in working with autistic children and children with ADD and ADHD – because they were still separating those – and any learning disabilities. And I stayed with them as they transitioned into adulthood.

C: Yeah.

K: Which led me into family counseling and such. There were so many people doing it that I really felt anonymous. And then when I came to Japan, I started my own practice. I thought I would have that same anonymity. I didn’t think it would be as big of a deal, but then I spoke at a couple conferences, and that made me more public. More of a public figure. And I didn’t think about it at the time when I was doing it.

C: Yeah.

K: And – because the first conference I spoke at, I did it as a favor because someone had dropped out. I was like, “sure, I’ll speak. No big deal.” And it was so well-received that it was written up in a paper, and it was promoted and stayed for like a year of promotion. And then from that, I got interviewed for the Japan Times. And then from that, I was on two different shows that are here – that was on expats. And, so, it just kind of… ballooned. And then I spoke at the ACCJ, and then – one ACCJ thing, I sent Rasta in my place because I was like, “this is getting out of control and out of hand.” And so, I wonder now… with me taking a year off from – at least, 2021 off from being a therapist, if that’ll all die down. Or if that’ll stay.

C: I’m not sure. I feel like your current role outside of being a therapist is a lot more… discreet. And I thought about my own… publicness when I published Not My Ruckus.

K: Mhm.

C: Like, should I put my name on it? Or a pen name.

K: Yeah.

C: I decided eventually

K: And your photos on the Cinnabar Moth website.

C: Yeah. Decided I’m going to want to tell people I wrote it, so I’m going to put my name on it.

K: Yeah.

C: I feel like, now, I’m… yeah. I’ve accepted that I’m gonna be relatively public as a figure.

K: Yeah.

C: Because… we live here in Japan, and I don’t have a typical job, and I’ve been here a long time. There’s not all that many Americans that have been in Nagoya for more than 10 years.

K: So, I feel like with the – the Japanese, that I’m becoming… I feel like I’m becoming episodically known.

C: Mhm.

K: Because I’ve left doing therapy, which means I won’t be testifying in court anymore. And I won’t be going to the children guidance center, and I won’t’ be going to schools. So, that’ll lower my profile. And then working for cinnabar Moth, I feel like it’s mostly online, and it’s not me. I’m not putting myself out there as Kisstopher. I’ve been kind of thinking about like, who do – who do I want to be now?

C: Yeah.

K: And I think one of the things I want to be is private.

C: That’s fair enough, I think.

K: As I share it with… thousands of people on the podcast. I’d like to be private. But there’s no face attached to this, I feel like. Like, even though there’s pictures of us – there is a picture of us online, I don’t feel it’s the same as when people are having a one-on-one in-person experience with me versus thousands of people having the experience of us on the podcast.

C: Yeah, I

K: And it’s cool that it’s thousands of people.

C: I do think that there’s kind of a difference in saying something publicly to a lot of people and saying something directly to somebody. In that… it’s harder to misinterpret that intimacy.

K: Yes. So, how – how did you feel about our rise – so, we sort of came into Japan anonymous. And then we both kind of became really publicly known and locally famous. And now we’re kind of moving out of that.

C: I’m happy to be moving out of that because I think… like, when I said it a couple of years ago, when I was well into my 40s

K: (laughs) A couple of years, you were not well into your 40s. The Musick Notes know that you are perpetrating a fraud.

C: My aunt and uncle were living in Tokyo, and I said something about being middle aged to my aunt on Facebook, and she was like, “you’re not middle-aged because that would mean I’m what?” I’m like, “you are only 13 years older than me.”

K: (laughs)

C: “You are also middle aged. You are in your 50s. Come on.”

K: Yeah.

C: So, I feel like being middle aged… and not striving to be famous – not making any money from being famous because even when you were doing all those talks, some of them would pay for your hotel and travel, but none of them were… paying you.

K: No. And that’s the thing, money doesn’t come with fame.

C: Right.

K: That, just – ugh.

C: They’re very distinct.

K: Yes.

C: Like… I know that at times in my life, I have made way more than like even movie stars that everybody would recognize their name.

K: Yeah.

C: So, now, I make way more form my day job than most authors. But that’s also true for most authors make way more from their day jobs than they do from their books even if they’re famous.

K: Yes.

C: So, I feel like I like the kind of… faux anonymity. Because I’m not anonymous. People can look and see who I am and figure out where I’m at in a kind of general… city way.

K: Yeah.

C: but I’m not accosted in public.

K: Yes.  So… you have a talk that’s coming up which I’m really excited about. Next month. And… I do want you to do more talks – you, unlike me, really enjoy giving talks. And you give good talk.

C: Thank you. And yeah, I do enjoy it.

K: Yeah. So, I think you have a couple of talks coming up. Because I think you have one for your company and then one for Cinnabar Moth that you’re doing. And I’m really happy that we have you on the team, and I’m really happy that you’re willing to do the talk because I think talks are important. And interestingly enough, I think in a couple of years, I’d like to go to some of the book shows as the press. As cinnabar Moth. But then the focus won’t actually be on me. The focus will be on the pres.

C: Right.

K: And I really like that. Like, okay, I can go and represent the press and not have it be I’m representing me. If that makes sense?

C: Yeah. I think people could say, like, if you say, “who’s Stephen King?” They’d be like, “I know who that is. That’s an author.”

K: Yeah.

C: But if you say, “who’s the president of Simon & Schuster?”

K: Yeah.

C: They’d be like, “I don’t know.”

K: Yeah. I want to be that powerful, “I don’t know” person.

C: Right.

K: I’m really excited about Cinnabar Moth, and I want to make it something big and juicy and awesome. That’s not… dependent on me.

C: Yeah.

K: That’s not specific to me, rather. That’s more about the quality of… what we publish. And the quality of the writing that we share with the world.

C: Yeah.

K: the quality of the books that we bring to market.

C: You’re not looking to be like Anna Wintour where you’re synonymous with the thing that you do

K: Yeah, no. And Anna did.

C: Right.

K: So, I think I could take it that route, but I don’t want to. And I’ve been avoiding that route my entire life.

C: Yes.

K: Because I don’t think that I’m built for fame. I think I’m too inconsistent. I think, being chronically ill, I need to shut it down just randomly, so I’m always making sure that I’m ahead. I try to keep my life six months ahead as much as possible. Not with the podcast because then it won’t be topical. But with everything else, I do. I try to stay six months ahead.

C: Yeah. That’s about the right… stretch, I think. And we

K: I think we with school, I try to stay three months ahead. Not quite six.

C: Yeah. Six is too much because you just can’t stay that far ahead.

K: Yeah. I wish I could. That would be awesome. I would be done. That’s the main thing (laughs) because I need to turn in the stuff to get it approved to get it back to me so that it can be – that part can be declared done.

C: Yeah. If you were six months ahead, you could just drop the hammer and be like… “you thought it was a mic, but it was actually a hammer. Boom.”

K: Yeah. I would be defending my proposal. And I don’t feel like I’m in any shape to defend my proposal. So, I’m kind of… dragging my heels a little bit, I think. Because I’m not – still not fully well.

C: Yeah. So, I guess I do feel like there are still times when people say, “who the hell is Chad Musick?” When they hear about me.

K: Yeah. We know that because it’s in the reviews for you book.

C: Right. That’s – that’s where I got the phrasing from.

K: Yeah.

C: But I think a similar thing happens outside of that. Like, at the company that I’m at now, there was a moment at which everybody went, “whoa.”

K: Yeah. “who is this person?”

C: Yeah. “Okay. We knew you were working here, but we didn’t know YOU were working here.”

K: Yeah. And that’s really nice.

C: I’m the same person.

K: Yeah. You like that discovery of you.

C: I do. Because I’m shy but open.

K: (laughs) You are not shy.

C: I have learned that being shy doesn’t get me anything. I am not criticizing people who are shy.

K: Because I’m shy.

C: Right. But I’ve found that… when I was young, I didn’t like to talk to people because… I wasn’t sure what they would say. And now, I’m like, “okay, but I still won’t know if I don’t talk to them, so I should still do so.”

K: So, you talk to people to find out what they’d say? Ow, my knees hurt. I’m going to stretch out.

C: Yeah. I talk to people to find out what they’re gonna say.

K: That’s interesting.

C: And I think when I was younger, too, there was always a sense that I wouldn’t be able to follow through. Because a lot of the things that people wanted me to do – because I graduated high school so young – I was still really young when they wanted me to do them. Like, under 18 young.

K: Yeah. You couldn’t take a lot of the opportunities offered to you.

C: Right. Like, the ad counsel wanted me to star in a commercial as an abused kid.

K: Yeah.

C: My dad was like, “nope.”

K: Too close to home.

C: Okay.

K: Telling truths. Telling truths.

C: Okay. You’re supposed to hire actors, not actual.

K: (laughs) So, I think that you would’ve been locally famous if it wasn’t – if your mom hadn’t gotten sick. Because your mom really loved fame. It was your dad who was afraid of it.

C: Yeah.

K: Because your mom had you model – you were modeling.

C: Yes. As a child.

K: Yeah. You were a child model. And… your mom was like really happy for you to take every opportunity to be in the public eye that you could take.

C: Yes.

K: And it was your dad who was like, “no. I don’t want that.”

C: Yeah. And now I’m like, eh. I see al to of people who have fame and struggle to… make their bills.

K: Yes.

C: Or make their bills, but their fame is so precarious that it turned them into an asshole.

K: Yeah.

C: Because they are afraid that if anything changes, they’ll lose their position. So, they like go out to squash people around them and that kind of thing.

K: Well, too, you see famous people who are working regular jobs.

C: Yeah.

K: And get just like… people try to humiliate them. And I don’t understand why. What is the big deal that I’m working at all? Why do you care?

C: Yeah.

K: Are you gonna change this for me? And some people have sought to not be famous anymore.

C: Yes.

K: It’s not like people who wanted to act but couldn’t find acting jobs or wanted to sing and couldn’t find singing gigs. It’s that some people have opted out of fame. And I think the people who want fame… sort of resent that. Because you have something someone else wants, therefore you’re obligated to keep it and work for it. And I know I experienced that a little bit with people being like, “but you’re successful. Why are yo throwing this away?”

C: Mhm.

K: When I’m stepping away for my health. I’m not throwing anything away.

C: Yeah.

K: I haven’t disposed of anyone. I’m sick. And I’m working with my doctor to figure out what’s going on with me, but they want me to guarantee that, in 2022, I’ll be a therapist again. And I can’t guarantee that.

C: Yeah.

K: I don’t know. I don’t have a crystal ball. I don’t know what the future holds for me. So, I don’t know if… I’ll be locally famous anymore. I hope not. Like, even if I go back to being a therapist, I hope I’m not locally famous. I hope that enough… time will have gone down or will have passed.

C: Yeah. Where you’re just another therapist.

K: Yes. I would love to be just another therapist. That would be awesome. Rather than the therapist that – it’s weird because the news cycles are so weird. Like, the article will come back up at random times, or the shows that I was on here in Japan will come back up at random times. And that’s always shocking like… ugh. I thought that was over.

(laughter)

C: “I thought I was beyond this.”

K: Yes. “How do you know about this?” And I think people who want that… or are striving for it… become really angry that… they feel like I’m ungrateful. And I’m not. I’m not ungrateful. I’m just saying this isn’t the thing I want.

C: Yeah. Like, who are you supposed to be grateful to?

K: It’s just to be grateful by giving all of myself to it and pursuing it to the fullest.

C: Yeah. But that just means that you’ve taken up space that somebody else that really wants it could use.

K: Right? That’s what I’m saying. And I’m more than happy to like turn people on to stuff. Like, people who ask me for help or advice, I always give it freely.

C: Yeah.

K: The one thing that always trips them up is the changes in the visa. People think I’m being mean because I’m like, “the visa I had doesn’t exist anymore.” It’s just a statement of fact. I’ve been here long enough that the visas have changed.

C: Yeah. They revamped the laws about five years after we got here, and you could continue on fi you already had it, but you couldn’t get new ones of it. And… things like that, so.

K: Yeah. So, what do y’all think? Do you want to be locally famous? Do you want to be globally famous? Hit us up on Twitter and let us know your thoughts. And… we thank you for listening. We value and love every listener. We love our Musick Notes. You can follow us on Twitter @TheMusicks – right?

C: That’s right.

K: Yeah. And that’s the only place you can follow us. We have an Instagram (laughs) that we haven’t posted to in like a year, I think.

C: Yeah. I think it’s about that.

K: I think it’s been a year.

C: I think so.

K: And if you’re an aspiring author or if you’re just interesting what goes into the writing industry and all of that, you can follow us on over to the take two. Or if you just want to know what’s going on with Cinnabar Moth. And we’re going to talk about the global distribution of Not My Ruckus this week. Because Not My Ruckus is now available in every region save Antarctica in the world.

C: And if they are in Antarctica, they can take it with them, so…

K: You know I’m rooting for that. (laughs)

C: Yeah, I know you are.

K: Thank you so much for spending time with us. We appreciate your time, and you know – 2 bucks a month, you get over 100 take twos and lots of content, so… check out Patreon. Think about joining.

C: Bye.

K: Bye.