K: So, lately I’ve been thinking about the difference between being asexual in the United States versus asexual in Japan. And I am openly out as being asex- and I think before I talk more about it, I should give the floor to my partner. Which I rarely give Chad the floor (laughs) on the podcast.

C: Oh, and I will take the floor.

K: Yeah.

C: So, first I want to say

K: Yes.

C: The difference between asexual in Japan and the United States is that you aren’t having sex with different people.

K: Okay…

C: Yeah, but having gotten that out of the way

K: That weird joke that nobody laughed at and – just, y’all, pity laugh for him.

C: I laughed in my mind, okay?

K: Yeah, that was sad, okay? But go ahead.

C: Is that I am also asexual.

K: Yay. My husband’s out. It’s a party. It’s pride month, and you’re out, that’s so exciting for me. Because part of not being fully out as asexual is because, if you’re asexual, it has ramifications for your partner about whether or not they come out as asexual. And so, I – when we first met, I told you that I tend to run really hot, sexually, at the beginning of a relationship, but that, really, I don’t like sex that much.

C: Yeah.

K: That I just do it to bond people to me because… bad childhood. And that there would come a time when I wouldn’t want any sex at all. And you were like, “sounds great.”

C: Yes.

K: (laughs) And I was so happy.

C: (laughs)

K: I was like, “but no, do you understand like I mean no sex at all. None.”

C: And I was like, “yes. I do.” And meanwhile all of my friends are telling me, “do you know how fucking hot your girlfriend is?”

K: Yeah.

C: I was like, “um… yes. And?”

K: Yeah.

C: Because, for me, it was not about that. Because I was attracted to you and your mind, which we’ve talked about before, but we haven’t talked about it in the context of saying I don’t… give a shit what people look like.

K: Because – so, I have to say something that, usually, people who say it they’re like – immediately, they sound like a jerk. But I’m sapiosexual. Which means I’m attracted to people’s – actually, I’m sapioromantic because I’m not sexual anything because I’m asexual. And I think… that… with everything that you can put sexual at the end of, you can switch out sexual to romantic, and that fits me. So, there’s a difference between being asexual and aromantic. And some people who are asexual are also aromantic, which means that they don’t… crave romance. And I’m not going to define romance because that’s for individual person – you know I don’t tell other people’s stories.

So, for me, I like physical contact. I like physical touch. I just don’t like physical touch that leads to sex. And so, I don’t like making out, I don’t… like particularly care for being fondled. I don’t enjoy seeing it in movies. I don’t… enjoy porn. I don’t – any of that.

So, when you see me retweeting pole dancers and such, I’m really boosting them – and I’m being serious when I say you should tip the doll. Because what they’re doing is hard work – because I used to be a stripper, and it is hard to lift your body weight and swing it around a pole. It is so much harder than it looks. And that slow walk thing that they do while slowly spinning: the slower you move, the harder it is to hold yourself up on that pole. So, for me, I don’t have – I’m sex-positive, so I totally want everyone to have as much sex as they want to have in the way that they want to have it.

C: I think that’s the key. Yeah. Like, because I don’t begrudge anybody else… anything about that that’s positive, consensual, mutual. I think that… for me, even just 20 years ago – which is when we were already married 20 years ago.

K: Yeah.

C: But um… back in the 90s, let’s say. Back in the 90s, when I became an adult, there was not really a lot of… mainstream discourse about asexuality or romantic… attraction as being different from sexual attraction.

K: Yeah.

C: And I grew up very… restrictive. I grew up Mormon and… very much the worst thing you could be in the world was gay. And my family was willing to accept that I was gay. Which I

K: And you’re not.

C: Bizarre.

K: Yeah.

C: They told me that when they found out that I was living with a woman. They were like, “oh, well that’s a sin. We knew you were gay.” “But I’m not.”

K: Yeah.

C: “But we knew you were” – “okay, but I’m not.”

K: And they didn’t stop thinking you were gay until they met me.

C: Right.

K: And until – because I’m your second wife.

C: Which is like, what does that have to do with it?

K: Yeah.

C: Yeah.

K: And they were like, “well, you wouldn’t pick a black chick to be your beard. That makes no sense. You must be having sex because she’s black, and you know how horny those black girls are.” And so

(scoffing)

C: Yeah, that whole thing.

K: Yeah. So… (laughs) So, for me, I think that… I’ve been in and out of the closet when it comes to being asexual. And that is for my own health and safety. Because I’ve had people threaten to… sexually assault me into no longer being asexual. And I’m like, “okay, so you’re going to violent act against my will, and that’s going to make me want the violent act that you’re doing against my will.” “But I’m going to do it so good that it’s going to convert you.” And that whole conversion thing. I went through the same thing when I was… militantly a lesbian. And that’s part of the reason why I became a militant lesbian: I was sick of the toxic masculinity that was putting so many labels on my sexuality. Because now I’m an old frigid bitch.

C: Right. Because you don’t want them.

K: Yes. And even if I was – and I would tell people, “even if I was fucking everybody on earth, you’d be the one person I wouldn’t fuck.”

C: Okay.

K: “You’re the one person no matter who I want to fuck, I wouldn’t fuck you.”

C: “You’d be the exception that makes the rule.”

K: Yes. So, I’m like “nothing about you” – and I used to have a saying that people are attractive until they open their mouth. And that’s a lot of – I would see a lot of people, and I would say, “they’re attractive.” And they’d say something, and I’m like, “gosh, that just made them so ugly to me.”

C: Mhm.

K: And… it really – their physical appearance, my processing of their physical appearance, actually changes as I get to know people.

C: Yeah. I feel like that’s a – it’s a tricky thing to talk about because… I feel like I’m also aromantic. Which I don’t think is a surprise to you because I… my romance is very… much focused on “are you feeling like…”

K: Yeah. Your romance is performative.

C: Yeah. Completely. And we both know that, and that’s not an issue because performativity is an issue when it’s false. Just like an asexual partner… can… have and enjoy sex with a sexual partner.

K: So, let me be very clear: when we were having sex, I’m extremely orgasmic. So, this really confuses people. Is because I – it doesn’t take much to make me have an orgasm. It’s really, really easy. I just find having an orgasm to be less interesting than watching a really great t.v. show. And I find… having an orgasm to be less interesting than a great conversation.

C: Yeah.

K: And I find having an orgasm – like, there’s really nothing… (laughs) that I find that an orgasm is more interesting to me than. You know. And I used to have this joke that I used to say – and people didn’t believe me – “I’m going to have every kind of sex and once I do, I’ll stop.” And I’ve had every kind of sex, and now… I’m not, anymore. I’ve stopped. I’ve stopped having sex.

C: So, does this mean that we have a frigid marriage?

K: Right? So, that’s the other thing is that we have a frigid marriage or a sterile marriage.

C: Oh, sterile. Yeah. That’s the word I was looking for.

K: Or a cold marriage. And I think our marriage is way hot. I mean, all anybody has to do is look at our Twitter after dark feed.

C: (laughs)

K: Every night, I’m waiting for you to kick off your blankets because I love, love, love the way your body looks naked. I love looking at you naked. But I’m a nudist, so I don’t feel like I’m really seeing you right now because you have on your armor. Also known as pajamas.

C: I do. Because we’re doing the podcast, so it’d be rude to podcast naked.

K: Sometimes, we do the podcast naked.

C: But I just make sure the microphones are covered so people can’t see that.

K: (laughs) Yeah, and we do have one air conditioner on because it is Summer in Japan. And it is so hot.

C: This is what sound editing is for. This is why we try some minimal sound editing: to keep that, so that you can still hear the words more than the air conditioner.

K: Yeah. So, for me, in America sex is talked about so much more often than it is in Japan. And, in Japan, being asexual is – so, I find Japan’s sexuality to be really interesting because, in Japan, they have – in the city of Nagoya, there’s 5 or 6 swinger clubs. That are just really open about being swinger clubs, but they do a lot of work to protect the swingers. So, you’re not allowed – you’re not supposed to exchange phone numbers, you’re not supposed to bring your phone into the club, and there’s different levels of swinging clubs. Like, one club has a pit that’s for pit sex where everybody just takes off their clothes, you go in the pit, you have sex with whoever’s in the pit. To… you know, different rooms. Where you just – you knock on the curtain and say, “hi” and they say come in or don’t. Or you sit at a bar, and then you go to a room.

And so, there’s all those different layers. And then they have soap land, where it’s paid prostitution. And they have hostess bars where it’s a mix between… conversation and prostitution. And then they have strip clubs. And… with all of that, Japan also has… “we are going to have sex until I have two children, and then we’re never going to have sex again” marriages.

C: Yeah.

K: And I worked with a lot of couples in Japan that were very, very happy with being… asexual. But one of the partners was American, and it would just mess up their head.

C: Mhm.

K: Like, “how can I be sure that my partner who has never had sex is going to be happy with me who has never had sex?” And I’d be like, “if y’all are happy, then y’all are happy.”

C: Right? I find it so weird that there are a lot of marriage laws that are predicated on sex, too. Like, you can get your marriage annulled if you haven’t had sex.

K: Within the first six months.

C: Yeah. Each state is a little bit different, and some of them, you have to be poor to get it annulled on the basis of no sex – and like, there’s various things, but I just think the idea that the relationship somehow depends on sex is very… binding.

K: It’s very western.

C: Yeah.

K: It’s not the case in Japan at all, and it’s not the case in Japanese law.

C: Right.

K: Alienation of affection has to do with affection, not sex. And so, when mistresses get sued in Japan, it’s usually because of time spent away from the family and resources taken from the family having nothing to do with sex.

C: Yeah. So, for me, that’s always been… kind of interesting, as we have navigated our relationship and our fidelity rules because what does it mean to be faithful in…

K: (laughs) When you’re asexual.

C: Yeah.

K: (laughs) Yeah.

C: Because we do have these rules, and I think, you know, it’s complicated by the fact that we have this other non-thing. Rather than simplified. Because I think if we said, “okay the fact that we are spouses is based on” you know, “every Tuesday, we have a nooner.”

K: Yeah.

C: Without that, you have to think about what is it that makes us a couple.

K: Yeah.

C: Because there’s been a lot of times in my life that I could’ve seen myself very happily… just living with another person and it not mattering…. Like, who they were.

K: Like, their gender not mattering and all of that.

C: Yeah, exactly.

K: And just having a companion.

C: Yeah. And you and I have talked about that in various contexts. Like, if you die, would I have a living companion and that kind of thing.

K: Yeah.

C: So, I think the fidelity rules get… weird. And Japan’s fidelity has always been a mix of traditional Japanese and western – I shouldn’t say always. In our lifetimes, has been a mix of traditional Japanese and western notions of it.

K: Yeah.

C: Because the notion of marriage being an exclusive thing, in either direction, is relatively new.

K: In Japan.

C: In Japan. Yeah.

K: So, they used to have – men used to travel a lot and have multiple… households that they would stay at when they traveled for business. And the women would have multiple partners that, when they traveled – so, like, one husband’s here in March, one husband’s here in May kind of thing.

C: Yeah.

K: And it wasn’t so… defined back in the – the shogun era. And I think family structures – the way households were setup – and all of that was very different. I’m not an expert in it, so do your research if you want to find out about that. But, for me, there has been… no expectation that I would be attracted to anyone. And that’s the thing that’s so different. And it’s kind of racist (laughs) but I like it. In Japan, they just assume because I’m not Japanese, I won’t find them attractive.

C: Mhm.

K: And… I actually feel really comfortable with that. Like, assuming that I don’t’ find them attractive because attraction, to me, doesn’t lead to sex. Like, if I find someone physically attractive – usually, when I find actors attractive, I find the character they’re playing attractive. Like, I’ll use one – and everyone’s going to hate me for this.

C: No, everyone’s not because I know which one, and I don’t hate you for it.

K: Everyone’s gonna hate me for this. So, I think Luther is hot as fuck. Luther, oh my gosh.

C: So, Luther played by Idris Elba in the t.v. show Luther.

K: Yes. And Idris Elba is not sexy to me at all. In the least.

C: Okay, but how about Stringer Bell?

K: Stringer Bell is hot.

C: Again, played by Idris Elba.

K: Yes.

C: So, again, it’s about the role and not the body.

K: Yeah. It’s because… I like darkness in people. And Idris Elba is one of the lightest, kindest, happiest people – and I’m so, so happy for him that that’s his reality. But… what attracted me to you was… for a while, like the initial bond that we had was your pain.

C: Yeah.

K: And I have a little bit of a savior complex – hello, therapist – I want to help people heal their pain.

C: And I was like, “you’re not saving me. I’m saving you.”

K: Yeah…

C: (laughs)

K: Another bad joke.

C: Not a joke. I think we’ve talked about this before.

K: Yeah. We saved each other.

C: Yeah.

K: And so, for me, that’s what I was looking for. I was always looking for someone who could help me elevate myself while they were levitating themselves and could actually take turns. Because there have been times where I’ve fallen down. Like, right now, I can’t work. And there’s a lot of other stuff going on, and you’re carrying the – the weight of a lot of stuff that would usually be on my plate.

C: You’re my person. And I think that’s – for me, the thing is that I like to have a person.

K: Yeah.

C: And I’m so happy you’ve been my person for… decades. Literally, decades.

K: Yeah.

C: But a lot of people before didn’t understand why I wouldn’t get jealous.

K: Yeah.

C: They’d be like, “why aren’t you jealous?”

K: Because you know me. (laughs)

C: “Because you’re cheating?” No.

K: No.

C: “Because you don’t care?” No. I mean, yes and no. Because, for me, I can see the aesthetics of other people and say, “okay, that person has good visual aesthetics.”

K: Well and me… like, if I see panties, if I see nipples – if I see anything the least bit sexual, I’m like, “babe. Babe. Look at those nipples.”

C: (laughs)

K: Because you have – you like looking at hard nipples.

C: It’s fun, yeah.

K: On women. But you don’t like surprise panties.

C: No.

K: So, for me, I don’t like surprise panties either. Like, I don’t want to see anyone’s underwear ever. So, whenever there’s surprise panties, I have to tell you so we can both be like, “ugh, that’s so bad for them.” And surprise panties have happened to me – and if there’s hard nipples, I’m like, “babe. Did you see those nipples?”

C: (laughs)

K: Because I know you really like nipples. Me, personally, I’m not really into the nipples, but I do like big breasts.

C: Mhm.

K: I do find breasts to be aesthetically pleasing. I like round softness. I think round softness is aesthetically pleasing. And really muscular bodies – maybe that’s why I don’t find Idris to be so sexy. I don’t know. That doesn’t track, though, because I find Beckham’s body type to be sexy…. But when I first saw Beckham, I didn’t know who he was. He was just an underwear model to me.

C: Right.

K: And when I hear him speak, I just think – I’m sorry guys, but David Beckham does not sound educated. Like, I don’t know what’s going on with him. Maybe one too many soccer balls to the head. Like… I don’t think he’s funny. And now he’s not sexy to me, anymore.

C: See, I can’t even think of when I’ve ever heard him speak. But I think, for you, something that I have noticed is that, to you, whether muscles are attractive is not how big they are or what they look like. It’s what you think the person is doing to get them.

K: (laughs) Totally. (laughs)

C: So, when you watch Luther, you’re like, “yeah, Luther’s got those muscles because he’s out there doing his cop thing. His shady cop thing all the time.”

K: Yeah, he’s like running. He’s pouring gasoline on himself. Telling people, “come on. Light me up.”

C: And when you look at Idris, you’re like, “oh, he spends a lot of time at the gym.”

K: Yeah. I don’t

C: “I don’t want to compete with that.”

K: Mmm. No. That’s too many hours away from me. Like…

C: (laughs)

K: I don’t want to go to the gym. That’s not interesting.

C: So, when you look at Beckham, in the past – when you didn’t know he’s a soccer player – you’re like, “ehh.”

K: No, when I didn’t know he was a soccer player, he was just an underwear model.

C: Right.

K: I know what the model life was. And I was still modeling at the time.

C: Mm. Yeah.

K: So, I was living the model life, and the model life is a specific exercise routine to have a specific body type and a specific diet. So, that I was like totally down with. I found models attractive mostly because they would know my rules, and they would follow my rules

C: Right.

K: And they wouldn’t

C: Mess with you.

K: Think it was funny to, like, tempt me with ice cream – my favorite ice cream – or, you know, have me overeat on my cheat day. Because, really, like measuring my food and everything. And measuring how much I worked out and everything – it’s serious. Fore ach shoot, you have to make weight.

C: Yeah.

K: It’s like being a jockey or any other athlete. You’ve gotta – if you’re sample size, you’ve got to stay sample size. So…. And sample size is not a size 5. It’s a size 3. So, you have to – your waist has to be as big as a record.

C: U.S. sizing. Yeah.

K: Yeah. So, I’m happy that – so, I think I’ve always looked at bodies. Because, when we met, I was very fit, but I told you I always had the goal of being fat. I just wanted to be… fat. (laughs)

C: Yes. So, which part will be more controversial? Like… being okay – not just okay with being fat, but being positive about it or being asexual? And will people say – I know they will – “oh, well you’re asexual because you’re just fat and nobody wants to have sex with you.” Which I will tell y’all is not true. Kisstopher gets propositioned on the too-regular.

K: Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes, I do. I still get – I still get propositioned all the time.

C: That’s why I say, “on the too-regular.”

K: Yeah. And I always shut it down. Because, like… eww. I’m not a cheater. And yes, we used to be poly, but we’re not anymore. We’re monogamous. And I tell people I’m monogamous. And I find it interesting that… my sex positivity, people just assume I’m having a lot of sex because I’m sex positive.

C: Mhm.

K: And so, when I was a therapist… when I was doing therapy regularly, I didn’t tell people I was asexual unless they were asexual because it would become an obsession, and that would be the only thing they would want to talk about is my sex life.

C: Well, your sessions shouldn’t be about you.

K: Yeah. And they shouldn’t be. And so, when people were like, “okay, you understand the poly lifestyle, you understand… all these different types of sexuality.” Because I had a client that was like, “I haven’t done piv” but they had done a lot of other things, and they were like, “am I a virgin?” And I asked them, “do you think you’re a virgin?” And they said, “no. I do not.”

C: Mhm.

K: Because they were into BDSM, but they’re not into… they’re asexual into BDSM.

C: Yeah.

K: And they’re like, “but I’m asexual and into BDSM. Can those two things be a thing?” And I’m like, “Absolutely. You can absolutely have kink in your life and be asexual.”

C: Yes.

K: Because… it’s about what is – what is it gratifying in you? Is it gratifying a sexual need in you, or is it a gratifying an emotional need in you? A romantic need in you? An intellectual need in you? There’s so many different ways, and… I just find that we need to open our minds and be more welcoming and more inviting of all these complex definitions because it just makes the world more interesting, right? If you meet someone who’s – so, me for example, I’m agender. I’m asexual, but I’m panromantic. And… sapioromantic.

So, gender does not define what I want in a romantic partner. But intelligence does. And I think it’s not like how you score on an IQ – it’s matching of interests and matching of being able to have those different levels, right? Like, can you be funny? Can you be serious? And… despite Chad’s performance on the podcast, he actually is funny in real life.

C: I was just thinking this. I was just thinking

K: (laughs)

C: “When she says can you be funny”, I was like, “they’re going to think you don’t actually even love me.”

K: (laughs) And so, what’s made you feel comfortable – because part of the reason I was in about being asexual is because I don’t want to – I’m really against outing anyone. I don’t want to out anyone ever. When I find out that someone’s under the rainbow, I’m thrilled. I just love everybody – I want everybody to be under the rainbow. There are some people I have kicked out from under my rainbow. Caitlyn Jenner. But… (laughs) beyond that, I think pretty much everyone else is welcome under my rainbow.

C: Well, and you kick the people out who are like, “get out form under the rainbow.” Like, the exclusionists. The people who will destroy it.

K: Yeah.

C: And say, “it’s mine. Mine alone.” You’re like, “no. It’s for everybody.”

K: Yeah.

C: “Then that means it’s for me. And my right to kick people out of it.” No, that’s not how it works.

K: Mmn. It’s not. And to think that someone has to be static and the same thing their entire life. Because I’ve worked with a lot of trans clients that that means something different for them across their lifetime. And I’ve worked with trans clients who have fully transitioned and then detransitioned, and the time that they transitioned was completely valid and an honest expression for them. And that was their truth. Their truth changed.

C: Yeah.

K: Their truth changed. I used to be 20. I’m not 20 anymore.

C: You have transitioned into your 50s?

K: Yes.

C: Is that what you’re saying?

K: Yes. And that’s how I think of identity. I think of it the same way. It doesn’t make the fact that I was in my 20s any less real.

C: Mhm.

K: Or any less valid. I’m just no longer that. And if we don’t give people the space to change and be happy and… just, like – for me, it’s about… rebellious. Being rebelliously happy. And part of the rebellion, for me, when we were doing pride – and we were marching in the streets – my first pride was a protest. It wasn’t the beautiful celebration that it is now. I watched it turn into that, and I’m super, super happy for that. But we were marching in the streets for rights.

C: Yeah.

K: And we were saying, “we’re queer, we’re here, get used to it.” And fighting for equality and fighting for recognition and fighting for, you know – there’s still 50 states in the United States where you can be fired for being gay, and that’s not okay.

C: I remember I was in San Francisco in 1995 or 6. I don’t know which one, but 5 or 6. When the Star Wars re-release happened.

K: Mhm.

C: And I went with coworkers, and pretty much everybody at the company was queer. And I was not identifying in any way as queer at the time. I was single, I was still asexual, but it was not something that I felt safe or comfortable saying for reasons I’ll talk about. But we were out, and we were just having fun, and people were doing the “we’re here, we’re queer.”

K: Mhm.

C: So, it started off as, “we’re here, we’re queer, get used to it.” And then it was, “we’re here, we’re queer, we’re going up the escalator. We’re here, we’re queer, we’re crossing the street.”

K: Mhm.

C: Just like… that celebration of… “we’re in San Francisco, and we’re here, and we’re visibly a queer group.”

K: Yeah.

C: And… like… we’re just living our lives. We’re going to the movies. We’re having fun. Somebody had brought – somebody had made stickers with different character names, and everybody got a sticker with who they wore that we all wore into it.

K: Mhm.

C: And then… it wasn’t quite Rocky Horror, but like… there was a point where everybody shouted “blue milk” at the screen.

K: Yeah.

C: And… “she’s your sister.”

K: (laughs) So, for those of you that aren’t old enough to remember – there was a time when they would do Star Was – basically, like, Star Wars at midnight, and we would go and see it, and it was kind of like a Rocky Horror-esque thing. Like, once we found out – once we got to “I am your father” and then Luke like crushing on his sister. There was just so many twisted things in Star Wars that we would go and shout things on the screen because it was – it was so well known.

C: Yeah.

K: And it was a celebration to go and be like, “you know? I’m a man. I’m a cis-gendered man, and I’m also Princess Leia, get into it.” You know. And, so, that was… that was really fun and really freeing.

C: It was fun. I was out with coworkers – same coworkers – at the Marin Barin company. And we were being loud, and somebody at another table said something. And this guy, Josh, that I – I’ve known a lot of Josh’s, so this is

K: Yes.

(laughter)

C: Said, “shut the fuck up.” Like, yelled over to them.

K: Yeah.

C: And somebody else was like, “aren’t you worried?” He was like, “I am a 300-pound bear into BDSM. I will fuck them up.”

K: Yes.

(laughter)

C: Alright then.

K: So, when I met you, and we were talking about sex and asexuality… it took a lot of time for you to… to trust that that’s where we were going because our relationship in the beginning was hypersexual. And… when we got to the part where it was… – it sort of like, our sex wound down. It didn’t just like one day we just stopped having sex. We kind of wound down from… doing various things to doing fewer things and fewer things and fewer things, and now we’re not doing what most people would consider to be sex but we define as sex.

C: I think a lot of that was trust and… trusting that this – not just trusting that the other person is saying what they believe is true but it saying what is actually true to them. Because when we were in our poly phase

K: Yeah.

C: The reason that we stopped it was not what I think of as the typical reasons of like, jealousy or it not working out.

K: It was laziness.

C: Yeah.

K: (laughs)

C: You were like, “do you have any dates or anything coming up?” I was like, “no. Do you?” You were like, “no.” “Can we stay in then?” And I think after 6 months of both of us just being like, “no.”

K: Yeah.

C: Like… “is it because you don’t know how to find any” – you were very much like, “do you want me to introduce you to some people? I will set you up. I know people who are looking who you’d be perfect for.”

K: Yes. “I know people who are into you. I don’t want you to feel deprived.” And we even went to that one party and all kinds of people were hitting on both of us, and I was telling you, “go, go ahead. It’s okay.” And I was just sitting, and you were like, “but you don’t want to.” And I’m like, “no.” And you’re like, “then why are you making me?” And I was like, “because they’re genuinely hot. Like, look at them, they’re so sexy. Go.”

C: I remember one night we had gone to a party together.

K: Yeah.

C: And I wasn’t drinking, so I was driving. Just bad idea, but I didn’t know that at the time.

K: Yeah.

(laughter)

C: But you and I… you talked to some people. You talked to a couple of women, and they were like, “meet us at this restaurant parking lot.”

K: Yeah. (laughs)

C: And so, you and I drove over to the restaurant parking lot, and they didn’t show. And both of us looked at each other and were like, “thank god.”

K: Yes.

C: “Does this mean our night is over? Can we just go?” (laughs)

K: Yes. And then there was another time that we were supposed to hook up and go to an orgy, and everybody was like meeting up at the parking lot, and I told you, “drive, drive, drive. Just keep driving.”

C: (laughs)

K: “Drive past it.” And so, (laughs) we were forever – I was forever, like, I don’t know why I liked organizing sex things. But I just like the thought of people being happy. And if this is what they want to do, then this is what they should be doing. I am honestly sex positive. I just don’t want it happening to my body.

C: Yeah. We’d be out, and you’d be like, “hey.” And I’m going to make up a name. “Hey, Suzie.” Suzie is our go-to name for an unidentified woman.

K: Yeah, it is.

C: “Hey Suzie.” And she’d be like, “what?” And you’d turn to me and be like, “doesn’t she have nice tits. Do you want to see her tits? Suzie, will you show him your tits?”

K: (laughs)

C: “Yeah.” “Do you want to see them?” I’d be like, “no, thank you.”

(laughter)

K: And now I think that’s the difference between being asexual in the United States and asexual in Japan. Because in Japan, what makes someone manly is being able to follow the rules.

C: Yeah.

K: And being able to work hard and do what’s right. And in the United States, at least when we were living there in the group that we were living in, what made a man was his conquests. His sexual conquests. And his prowess, and his success with women. And it was so focused on the male-female dynamic. And that binary – that anything outside of the binary was really threatening. And, in my life experience, was really dangerous.

C: Yeah.

K: And… so, for me, I understood why we didn’t talk about who we were as a couple.

C: Yes.

K: With other people. And I think that I… was always making those sex parties and such because… a lot of years, people thought I was an alcoholic.

C: Mhm.

K: Because I do shots of tequila. And I would do like 3 shots of tequila, and I would look at you, and I would tell you, “I’ve had ten. You’ve only seen me drink 3, but I’ve had ten, and I’m sloppy wasted. And that’s why we’re not gonna make it to the afterparty.” And you were like, “cool.”

C: Yeah.

K: And everybody would accept that. They’d be like, “ohh. Poor Chad has to deal with wasted Kisstopher.” (laughs)

C: “Poor Chad who’s being deprived by being the designated driver.” I’m like, “okay, no. I’m the designated driver because being drunk makes me feel really, really bad.” Which now we know is because it causes me seizures.

K: Yeah.

C: Also, why I shouldn’t have been the designated driver. But… yeah. I – I had girlfriends before you. I was married once before you. And a lot of that feels

K: You’ve attended orgies before me.

C: Yeah. And a lot of that felt like…

K: You had group sex before me.

C: Yup. Getting the message that “this is how you be happy.”

K: Yeah.

C: And I spent a lot of time searching for happiness. And trying out the ways that people were like, “this is the formula for being happy. You do this, and you’ll be happy.”

K: Yeah.

C: Okay, so I will do this… and it doesn’t actually make me happy. Like… I don’t like this. But not in a “this is horrifying” kind of way. And I think that’s why it’s taken me so long to talk about it is because… there’s so many expectations and so many assumptions about it. And people are like, “oh, you’re asexual. Were you abused as a kid?” Like… okay. If I answer yes or no, you’re going to get the wrong idea. Because, yes, I was abused as a kid, but… separately from that

K: Yeah.

C: I am asexual.

K: Yeah. And that’s why I always didn’t like – like, when I was… pansexual, people were like, “you’re hypersexual because you were abused as a kid.” And when I’m asexual, I’m asexual because I was abused as a kid. Which one is it?

C: Okay. And there’s gotta be a lot of things in between. “Oh, you have a regular sex drive because you were abused as a kid.” Why does nobody ever say that?

K: Right. And so, I was abused as a kid, but I didn’t abuse my kid.

C: Yeah.

K: So, now what?

(laughter)

K: You know. The theory falls apart. And I think if we stop trying – if we stop making it a source of shame

C: Yeah.

K: And just accept, like – why do you give a fuck? I’m not gonna fuck you anyway. Like – and I still say that to people. “Why do you care?” And I would have clients, as a therapist, who would start digging in to who I am sexually, and I’d be like, “why do you care?”

C: Yeah.

K: “I’m never going to have sex with you.” They’re like, “why not?”

C: Well, first

K: Even if I wasn’t married

C: (laughs) Okay.

K: Even if I wasn’t married – let’s put that aside – and even if I wasn’t monogamous, that would be rape. And they’d be like, “how would it be rape?” Because you don’t realize it, but I have so much power over you right now. And because of the power dynamic, it’s inappropriate, and it’s rape. And power dynamics can create that environment. And so, to me, just having to be so… aggressively myself.

C: Mhm.

K: I don’t have to do that in Japan. Because, while in Japan they feel comfortable asking me how much money I make, no one has ever asked me any sexual questions.

C: Yeah.

K: Ever. And in the United States, people ask me sexual questions. And… that’s just – like, being agender is not a big deal in Japan. Because… I’m Kisstopher.

C: Yeah, I think that’s

K: I don’t like being Kisstopher-san. I do not like being Kisstopher-san and Musick-san.

C: No.

K: But, like, they don’t… they don’t care about my pronouns. They don’t care… about my gender. They don’t care about my sexuality.

C: And most Japanese people when they meet me, if I’m talking about you, they’re like, “oh, you’ve been married for 20-something years.”

K: Yeah.

C: They ask, “do you still like each other?”

K: Yes.

C: The base assumption is that we are not having sex. That’s just the… you’ve been married 20 years? You’re not having sex. Boom.

K: Yeah.

C: Like, because you don’t have any young kids – if you don’t have any young kids, you are obviously not having sex.

K: Yeah.

C: That’s it. So, that’s not even a topic of conversation. But it’s like, “do you still like each other, or does she intensely resent you and you worry she will poison you in your sleep?”

(laughter)

C: Like…

K: “Does she cook for you?” That’s the big code. Like, “does she cook for you?” And so, we actually don’t cook for each other – I rarely – every now and then if Chad wants to eat what I’m eating.

C: Yeah.

K: Because we have different medical things, we have different dietary restrictions. It’s like a huge hassle for us to eat the same thing. Because… I’m sort of – I’m pseudo-keto, and you’re pseudo something else. What are you?

C: I don’t know what it’s called when all you eat is pizza.

K: (laughs) I find that, since I’ve been doing – I’m not strict keto, but since I’ve been doing mostly keto, that you’ve been doing mostly pizza. And I don’t – I’m one of the weird people that don’t like pizza. I don’t like pizza.

C: Mhm.

K: I love pepperoni, so I used to eat pizza to get pepperoni.

C: Yeah.

K: Because I love pepperoni.

C: And I feel like… that’s a good metaphor for the asexuality.

K: Yeah?

C: Yeah.

K: I used to have sex to get the intimacy. To get the romance.

C: Yeah. Exactly.

K: But I don’t like the sex, I want the romance.

C: Yeah.

K: Yeah.

C: And I think you want the intimacy – like, you don’t want romance.

K: Yeah.

C: So, we have talked about how I can… be romantic because it doesn’t repulse me to be romantic. I just – it’s not something I naturally feel or need.

K: Yeah.

C: But I do need intimacy.

K: Yes.

C: So, before we got married, I had a roommate. Who was best man at our wedding.

K: Yeah.

C: Straight guy but I was very happy with our life when were both single, and we’d go shopping, and I’d make food and stuff.

K: And so was he, and you ruined it with his first wife, and he never forgave you.

C: Yeah. So

K: Never forgave you for that.

C: Yeah. Because people were like, “are you a couple?” No, we’re just… roommates and get along.

K: So, I have a question. When we’re on Twitter, there have been so many times that you’ve been – that you have wanted to come out that you haven’t come out. Because you want people to know that you’re part of the LGBTQIA+ and that you’re under the rainbow. And you want to engage in those conversations, and you’re like, “I can’t because I’m just a cis straight man, so I can’t participate.” And I wonder why don’t you just come out? Like…

C: That’s a… I thought maybe this question would come up, and I find that it’s… tricky for me because I feel like my voice becomes so dominant in these kinds of conversations because of social dynamics. So… I’m a highly educated, white, male-presenting… everything about it is…

K: But think of the power in that allyship to be all of these things, to be a successful ace.

C: Right.

K: And I think that – and to be a happy ace. And for me, I think that’s where the power lies that you’re missing. The ability to tell other straight, white guys – college educated with a PHD – that they’re completely normal to not crave sex. They’re completely normal to not crave romance. It’s okay to not have sex. It’s okay to not be womanizing. It’s okay to live authentically. You’ll be okay. And you can get married. You can find a partner. You can have whatever level you want. Because us being married is about us wanting to… tell the world that this is my person. 

C: Yeah. Yeah.

K: And – because we – we’re both really obsessed with specialness. And being married makes us special to each other.

C: Yeah.

K: And because – so, even though I’m agender, I really value “wife.” I really value “husband.” You’re my husband, and I’m your wife. So… I wonder – was it just fear of being dominant or was it fear of being told “shut up.”

C: I think it’s fear that people will perceive me as band wagoning and as trying to be dominant. Like, the dominance thing is not the fear that… that our group would… be like, “oh, we must elevate you” because we have a quite diverse group of friends and found family and such who are

K: Yeah.

C: Not predominantly white, cis people.

K: Yeah.

C: So, lots of people of color, and… of all genders. But… the feeling that people would say, “well you’re just saying this to get on the bandwagon. It’s really easy to just say, oh, I’m ace.” Like…

K: But what benefit comes with being ace? What special benefits are we getting? Please let me know because I’m owed some benefits.

C: (laughs)

K: Like if there are – I’m owed some benefits. Like, where’s my – cut my check. Cut my check.

C: Yeah. I feel like this is an area that I really struggle with, and I struggle with gender, too. And I – you know, you and I have talked, and you know that I fully support you being agender.

K: Yeah.

C: And I feel like there’s a lot of time that I say to myself… when I look at men, I don’t see myself. And when I look at myself, I don’t see myself.

K: Yeah. So, why don’t you accept that you’re gender-queer or gray gender?

C: Because there’s a lot of times that I feel like – and

K: Or genderfluid.

C: Because I feel like, physically, I don’t ever… I don’t do things to present in a certain way.

K: Being lazy and being genderfluid are too different things.

C: I feel like

K: Let’s be real, I’m female presenting because I have giant boobs.

C: Yeah.

K: Like, that is the only thing… that makes me female presenting. I do nothing else.

C:  And I feel like I’m bald and bearded, and here we are.

K: Yeah. So, you’re male presenting because you have a beard.

C: Yeah.

K: But… Laila McQueen, who is a drag queen who draws a beard on – sexy, tasty little morsel of a human…

C: See, now, I’m more on the Lucille Stoole kind of sizing.

K: Okay. Lucille Stoole is another sexy individual.

C: And I know you think that.

K: Yes.

C: We’ve talked about it.

K: Yes. So… I feel like just because you don’t put on makeup, you think that you can’t… be… gray gendered or something other than cis gendered, but I told you that, throughout our marriage, I have not experienced you being cis gendered.

C: Yeah.

K: And you don’t experience being cis gendered, so I don’t understand where’s the value in identifying as that.

C: I think that’s the thing is that I don’t identify as that, I just… being invalidated hurts so much that I don’t feel… like, for me, it’s a battle that’s worth it. And I don’t… I know that it would be helpful to other people, and I feel bad that I am not having that battle so that others – to kind of broaden people’s viewpoints for other people. But I just

K: So, what about saying that you’re gender questioning? Or gender exploring?

C: But I’m not.

K: What are you?

C: I think I’m nonbinary. I think that’s the thing I identify most with.

K: Yeah.

C: Is that I just don’t fit. And I feel like… I accept all of the social benefits of being a man, and… it’s a hard thing to give up. To

K: So, you don’t have to give up all of – because everything you have now, none of it has to do with you being a cis gendered white male.

C: No. No, I guess not. But I feel like

K: Your PHD has nothing to do with you being a cis gendered white man. Like, name one thing

C: No, and that’s actually one of the things I like most about my PHD is that it gives me a gender neutral

K: Yeah.

C: Prenominal. Is that, “are you Mr. Musick?” I’m like, “no, I’m Dr. Musick.”

K: Yeah.

C: It makes it really easy. You don’t get to gender me with what you call me because you either call me Chad or you call me Dr.

K: Yeah.

C: I prefer Chad, but I will accept Dr. I guess I don’t feel any sense of… shock when people call me “he.” I don’t feel any sense of discomfort with that because that’s how I’ve been referred to all of my life. It’s something that I’m still working out. And it’s something that being in Japan has given me the… kind of freedom to work out.

K: The safety and space to work out.

C: Yeah.

K: Because nobody’s going to – nobody’s going to bash you.

C: Right.

K: Nobody’s going to – they’re more likely to bash you for being disabled than they are for your gender.

C: Okay and have fun trying because I carry a stick.

K: Yeah. So, we’re going to think on it some more, and we’ll probably talk about it again sometime. And this has been – we’re not doing a whole, we’re not dedicating the podcast to pride for this month. This is our pride episode. And… yeah. We’re happy that you listened, and we’re gonna take it on over to the take two. And I actually know what the take two’s going to be about this week. It’s going to be about bad faith reviews. People who spam reviews or people who give a review to promote their products – when we’re talking about book reviews.

C: Yeah.

K: So, thank you for hanging out with us. This was a bit longer of an episode, and thanks for spending your time with us. And if you’re a patron, follow us on over to Patreon, and we’ll talk about bad faith reviews.

C: Bye.

K: Bye. Oh, happy pride.

C: Yes. Happy pride.

K: (laughs) Bye.

C: Bye.