K: So, lately I’ve been thinking about the difference between being an owner, being a boss, and being an employee. And how so completely… different those modalities of thought and being on. And I’ll be honest, being a soul – having a – being the sole practitioner of my own private practice, I’m the only therapist in Nagoya. And so, no one – they can’t refer them to anybody else within the practice. And that’s making me really aware of… the impact to the clients. The impact to the zone idea. And the impact to the contractors that work with me.

Whereas, if I were a boss in a company – which I would be horrible at because I’m a horrible boss because I don’t enjoy mentoring people at all. And… I just want everybody to know how to do their job.

C: (laughs)

K: Like

C: Like, know it now. “Don’t ask me for mentoring. Just know it.”

K: Know your job. Read the description and do it. What’s the problem? Figure it out. So, I am a horrible boss. But I think you, on the other hand, are an amazing boss. And, like… you treat… I don’t know, I just feel like everyone has a really great feeling when you’re their manager.

C: I strive for that. I have one of the people that I manage say in their review of me – because I get a review every week or two – “I feel like Chad is really listening and giving me feedback on how I’m doing, and I appreciate that.” I’m like, “yay. Positive feedback about my positive feedback.” I just think that it’s a skill. I think… I don’t see why it’s done so badly so often.

K: So, this is something you and I debate a lot outside of the podcast. I think that there are just inherently good at being bosses and that there are people that are just inherently bad at being bosses even with, like, the most wonderful intention. So, I’m not bragging, but I don’t have good intentions at the boss. So, that’s why I’m very, very selective about who I work it because I like to fire people, and I like to quit. So, I like to quit in the middle of my workday. I still show up, and I’ll still do all of my sessions. Like, after session 1, sometimes I’m like, “I quit. Emotionally, I quit.” And then I get it back together – I have 30 minutes in between clients to allow myself to quit and hire myself again. Just like I fire myself and then I rehire myself. Like, “I’ll do this one more job.” I take it one job at a time when I’m having a bad day.

But when it comes to employees when I’m having a bad day… Rasta really does – he’s my office manager as y’all know – really does provide a buffer because I want to fire everybody all the time. Like, don’t mess with my space. So, cleaning people that come and clean the office – I want to fire them every time they rearrange stuff. It is just in me to fire people. Like, almost everybody on your team that you work with, I would’ve fired them by now at least once.

C: (laughs)

K: And so, I feel like as a boss, I have nefarious intentions.

C: And that’s why I think that, although it’s a skill, you’ve identified not wanting to be in that role. So, I think people who don’t want to be in that role should not be in that role. The thing I think is interesting is how often people who are bad at it end up being people managers.

K: Yeah.

C: Because I – even if, which I don’t grant this – but even if being good as a people manager is an innate talent rather than a skill that you can develop

K: It is an innate talent.

C: I think it is also a skill you can develop. But even if

K: You can fake it till you make it.

C: Right. I don’t think that it’s an innate talent that – I don’t think it’s like a superpower that nobody could identify it until you’re actually made a manager.

K: The lack of animosity that you feel – you feel no animosity. For situations that would just make me feel ballistic.

C: Uh-huh.

K: Like, I would just lose it. And the biggest one that you are super patient with is complete and utter waste of your time. Just, like… you – there are very few things are a complete and utter waste of your time. And I think, temperamentally, you don’t know how that is so different from the majority of the rest of the world.

C: So, maybe the majority of the rest of the world shouldn’t be people managers.

K: Correct. That’s what I’m saying.

C: But I don’t think that the majority of the world would ever need to be people managers because that would have each person – like, that’d have more than half the people being people managers, which would mean that very few people would even manage one full person.

K: Yeah.

C: That would just be too many people managers.

C: This is true.

K: So, for you, I don’t… understand why you like meetings. I hate meetings.

C: I get to find out people’s thoughts. I get o find out their thinking. I get to find out why they’re behaving the way they’re behaving – whether that’s good or bad. If they’re doing awesome, I get to find out why they’re doing awesome. If they’re doing less than awesome, I get to find out why that is. I get to know what people want, what I can do for them, what I can’t do for them. I feel like meetings tell you everything, socially.

K: Mm. And I have a different view. I go into most situations pretty much knowing who the person is after the first conversation. Like, what they want, all of that. So, I feel like why do we need to have this conversation again.

C: Yeah, I’m not talking about intrinsic motivation. I’m just talking about what they want for that week. “What do you want for this week?”

K: See, that’s a completely different mindset because I’m like, “what does it matter?”

C: (laughs)

K: I don’t care what they want for this week. This is what this week is. Like, this week is this week. There’s so many things that I don’t get to choose in my week. As, you know, an owner of a business – as my own boss – I don’t have unlimited choices. And, like, you don’t resent people’s freedoms.

C: No.

K: I do. I’m just a very resentful person.

C: I think if you resent people’s freedoms, you shouldn’t manage them. Because I’ve encountered people who are people managers who do resent the freedoms. Who feel like they’re the ones who have it rough.

K: Yeah.

C: Even in companies where they make a lot more money than the people they manage. Because that’s not always the case at companies. Some companies, it’s more flat – where they promote people to people management, not to give them more money but just because they’re good at it. But I know people who make triple or quadruple what the people working for them do. And they’re like, “damn them for going out and having a nice Friday evening.”

K: So, see, I’m a good Japanese boss.

C: You would be an excellent Japanese boss. But I think Japanese bosses are terrible in general.

K: No, I would be the bomb dot com as a Japanese boss – I love everything about that position. Like, starting from where their desk is in the room. I love it because they have open floor plan. Their desk is furthest from the door, and then everybody else sits with their back to them, and they can see everybody’s screen from where they’re sitting. And how I know this is true across multiple companies is because I work with people on how to get used to being observed in that way. Because it’s very difficult for them.

C: Yeah.

K: And explain to them why it’s happening and the mentality and like… why they don’t like people to work from home. I like to see that people are working when I’m working until midnight, and I have to get up at 6 am the next day and go to work. And everyone else is like really having a hard time managing that six hours. I feel that disparity, to me, it’s so unequal. And it’s so… unfair. And I feel like, if your boss is there busting their hump to ensure that you have a job, the least you can do is make sure you’re doing everything you can to assist them. And so – I found it very interesting that I have a very Japanese mentality when it comes to work. And… I’m not saying that this is better than the American mentality, but I don’t trust people not to work if they’re out of my sight. I do not trust that they’re working.

So, anyone who works for me has to send regular check ins to me via email, and… it has to have an attachment to prove that they’ve done whatever they say they’ve done. And that’s, even for my contractors – and I know that’s oppressive. I know people are clutching their pearls, but I think that everyone knows I’m the mean one, now. I’m the mean one. You’re the nice one of the couple. I think, between us, that you’re the nice one.

C: I think as far as… economic systems of oppression go. I am the nice one.

K: (laughs) See, and I don’t feel like it’s oppressive if I tell you part of your job is to send me an update every two to three hours. And I don’t feel like it’s oppressive if I pay attention to how long it takes people to do something and then expect them to do it – not at their optimal ability. But at their medium ability. So, I don’t expect people to always be optimal, but I expect them to least, like – what’s your lowest, what’s your highest? For the most part, be in your middle. Your high days will balance out your low days. But we can’t have a bunch of low days, now. Like, that’s not working.

C: I think that you only apply this when you are talking about employees or… like, I notice that you are very selective in how you apply this. Because we never, for example, sweat our artist.

K: No.

C: If he’s turned in his pictures on time, you’re happy. You don’t care when he did them. If he emails us to say, “hey, I’ve been busy. They’re going to be a week late.” You’re like, “cool, whatever.” You don’t quire, like, a daily status of “I haven’t done them yet, I haven’t done them yet, okay I’ve started on one.”

K: But what I did with our artist is I had them produce art for a month in advance.

C: Yes.

K: So, in the beginning, I did sweat them. Do these multiple batches and keep doing them over and over and over again until you’re so far ahead that, even if they messed up for a month, that we would still have all our episode arts.  So, I do do that, I just know that with artists, you can’t pressure the inspiration. Like, in the beginning of the relationship, there’s this eagerness to… like, they’re so exited – especially if they’re not in an art field. They get so excited that they’re able to create art and do something that they really enjoy that they’ll pour their all into it in the beginning.

C: Right.

K: So, get them ahead, keep team ahead, and you don’t have to sweat them that way.

C: And I regard all professionals this way. When I was people managing at McDonald’s when I was like 16 or 17, I did have to go around and tell people, “hey, I see you hiding underneath the cash register.” Like, literally hiding underneath the counter underneath the cash register.

K: (laughs)

C: Just… doing nothing. You know. “You can go home, or you can work.” I can’t afford – me making 6 bucks an hour – I can’t afford 5 bucks an hour for you to do nothing.

K: Yeah.

C: Because that affects my labor percentage, and then I won’t have a job. So, I feel like… now I work with professionals.

K: Mhm.

C: Everybody I work with has… at least a master’s degree or owns the company. Like, those are the two levels. You have a master’s degree, or you own the company. So, I feel like nobody really has to be pressured. They are somewhat like artists in that they start the job eager to do a good job.

K: Mhm.

C: and they take pride in their work, and they feel like they’re delivering good things, and they just need to be told it’s good. We tell our artist, “hey, we really like this episode art. This one was really striking.” And it’s not commenting on every single one like, “this was good. This, too, was good. This was good.” Just… picking out a few and saying, “here’s what I liked about it.”

K: So, I find it interesting that you think I’m in charge of our artist when I have not communicated with them in over a year.

C: Okay, yeah, that is a good point that you let me handle them.

K: so, I actually don’t know if there’s art. I just expect the art to be there.

C: Yeah. Because you expect me to handle it.

K: Yes, I do.

C: You expect me to people manage them.

K: Yes, I do.

C: Okay, I got you.

K: So, aside from Rasta, name one person I manage.

C: Yeah, you don’t manage anybody. Because you don’t manage me.

K: No, I do not.

C: You just expect that I’ll do what I’m gonna do. But you have me manage pretty much everybody. And Rasta manages a few people. Rasta manages your therapy people.

K: Yeah.

C: I manage your non-therapy people.

K: Yeah. And so, for me with my clients, I’m always very clear with them that… they are not my employers. And I am not their boss.

C: Yeah.

K: And that this is – we’re coming together to help you have more good days than bad. Everything’s not gonna be perfect, but we’ll do our best. And like, that kind of relationship, I can handle, but I just know – and here’s the thing: I think if you know that you’re a terrible people manager, that there’s no shame in that.

C: No, I don’t think so, either. That’s why I’m saying I don’t know why people who are terrible people managers would become that. Because it’s not like… do you remember those geode toys where you’d break them open, and you’d find out what the toy was, but you couldn’t know until you opened them? Or just geodes, not even geode toys. Like, you see a rock and you’re like, “is this a geode? I’ll break it open and find out.”  I don’t think management is like that. I think when people are not people managers, there are signs that tell you whether or not they will be good at it.

K: I think the first sign is whether or not you have a certain amount of disdain for humanity.

C: Yes. Definitely. If you have disdain for humanity, you are probably not going to be a good people manager.

K: (laughs) And I admit I that have a certain for humanity.

C: Now, you might make a good coven leader, I don’t know. Like, of a witch’s coven, or

K: No, I would not.

C: Not you personally, but like somebody with a disdain for humanity might make the good leader of a brood of vampires for example.

K: No, they wouldn’t.

C: Well, are they hiring humans to be their sub-vampires? That’s the question. Like, do they have disdain for all of vampire-kind?

K: And so, people who have disdain for humanity have disdain for most living things.

C: Mm. But see, that’s why I brought up vampires because they’re not living. They’re undead.

K: They’re the living dead.

C: Yeah.

K: So, you know there are people who live the vampire lifestyle who consider themselves to be vampires.

C: Yes.

K: And I’m telling all you vamps out there that, if you have a high disdain for people or a high sustain for any particular of vampirism, then you should not be the leader of the nest.

C: The leader of the pack?

K: Yeah. So, no, a group of vampires is called a nest.

C: Okay. I was just thinking

K: You shouldn’t be – you are not leadership material in that way. But here’s where I shine: I shine in marketing, where I can just go and work and do my own thing. I’m really good at figuring out how to market. I’m really patient with doing tons and tons of research. I read a bunch. And so, for me, I feel like why do I need to tell it to anyone besides you or Rasta?

C: Yeah.

K: What would be the point of sharing all of this knowledge.

C: I have people who work for me because I manage data analysts. Some of them are very gregarious and like other people and like talking to other people, and some of them are like, “here’s my report. Don’t make me talk to anybody.”

K: Yeah.

C: And both styles work. Both styles can be very effective.

K: So, as an employee – here might be a shocker for everyone – I’m a horrible employee.

C: What? You’re both a horrible boss and a horrible employee?

K: Yes. I am. I am a horrible employee. I hate being told what to do and when to do it. I like – for me, I’m so egotistical when it comes to any work situation. I feel like I go in, I get the lay of the land, I know what needs to be done – I just stay away from me. I will do what needs to be done in a timely manner. It will be done on time because I am punctual. I arrive to work on time, I leave work on time. I do what I’m supposed to do when I’m supposed to do it. But for you to come in here and give me some B.S. that’s designed to keep me from getting a raise

C: Okay. Let’s say they were asked to ask you to send a status update every couple of hours with evidence.

K: That would not bother me.

C: That’s interesting. Because I think you’re describing exactly the kind of boss that you hate having as a boss if you’re an employee.

K: No, so what I didn’t like – I’ll use English teaching as an example.

C: Okay.

K: So, when I would go in and English teach, and I would do it by the numbers… they would still find an excuse or a reason to shave points for the sole purpose of preventing me getting a raise or promotion.

C: Yeah, and I’ve seen that before. And that’s just like managing… that way. I’ve been at companies as a manager where they manage that way, and it’s not fun. Like, Ray Crock – who founded McDonald’s – had this saying that profit is in the scraping of a ketchup barrel. McDonald’s when I was working there was very much like, “our profit comes from squeezing every ounce out of all of our people. Making sure nobody has any slack in their day. Making sure that, like, if it’s slow for an hour, you send people home. And if it gets busy again, everybody just works extra. What?

K: Yeah.

C: I don’t like managing in that kind of company because it doesn’t… have room where they kind of… mutual understanding and respect that I really like in a relationship. Because I don’t think… like an organizational chart, yes, it’s hierarchical technically. The manager is above the other people, but I don’t think of it that way for myself.

K: Mhm.

C: I think they’re my peers, and I’m the one tasked with doing the people part. And making sure that their time is protected. That they’re getting their education in. You know, one of the conversations that I have on occasion with my people is, “what are you doing for your education?” Like, “are you taking time? Please block our time to do education.” And we have a budget and making sure that they take that time. 

K: Yeah. I think your situation, though, is really rare and quite ideal for your temperament.

C: I think so. And I intentionally sought out a company where this was the case. So, I’m quite happy that I was right about this company having the case.

K: I was a really good employee for… a company that I worked for when I was first staring out as into the field of therapy. And I would go into people’s homes. And I was just really good at it.

C: Yeah.

K: And everybody loved having me into the homes. And then I became a supervisor, and one of the things that – the note I always got back in my supervision is that I set unrealistic expectations. And everywhere I work, I get the note that I’m setting unrealistic expectations, and I didn’t understand that until I became a boss.

C: Mhm.

K: And I would go in and perform at my highest level, even though I’m disabled.

C: Right.

K: And that sets the tone and the standard. And so, now, I dress super comfortably. And… people get me how I would be on my worst day. And… I’m able to maintain that even energy-output – like, in terms of how fast I respond to emails, how long the email response is, how often do I let people go over time.  How I get people in and out of a session – all of those things are built and shaped around me on my worst day. And that’s what I learned from the feedback of setting unrealistic expectations. Because if someone meets me during an intake, and I’m super genki and bubbly and smiley… that’s not my… base.

C: Right.

K: And so, I know that my baseline is not really pleasing. It’s aesthetically unpleasing. Because it’s just a blank facial expression.

C: Mhm.

K: And… my – like, my therapy voice is – this is my therapy voice. Like, what you’re hearing now is my therapy voice. And some people feel like it’s too aggressive, and so I’m like, you know, “hey, I expect you to come. I expect you to work. I expect you to do your homework. If you don’t do your homework, you can’t hold me responsible for not making progress.

C: See, now I’m really curious about what people think a better therapy voice would be. Like,

K: Your voice. Your patient voice.

C: Oh, okay. But I think that’s my tone, not my voice. And I don’t think you have an impatient tone.

K: Yeah, I don’t talk very much actually in the sessions.

C: As you shouldn’t.

K: Yeah. So… in English teaching, they say that the student should speak 70% of the time, and you should speak 30% of the time. And I have clients that literally, in a 60-minute session, I speak for maybe 7 minutes of that session.

C: So, they get basically 90% of the time.

K: Yes. So, my clients speak about 80% of the time. And then about once a month, for my weeklies, they know they’re going to get the session where, “okay. I’ve accumulated all of this data.”

C: (laughs)

K: “And I’ve got things to say.” And so, the sessions – those sessions always start off with, “I’ve got a couple notes. I have a couple things on my agenda.” And then I’m always sure to make sure we get around to what they also brought to the session wanting to talk about. But, for the most part, I asked – I start every session off with, “how are things going?” The reason that I’m focusing so much on… what it’s like to be a therapist is because… that’s what I’ve done as my own boss.

C: Yeah. For almost 25 years, now.

K: Yeah.

C: So, that’s kind of your experience.

K: Yeah. And I was an employee for a little while, here in Japan. When I was an employee in the United States… I was mostly stripping. And you don’t

C: Well, and you were an independent contractor.

K: Yeah. And so… and doing sex work. And that was all (laughs) on my terms. Very fortunate in that way. And so, it wasn’t… really… and then I was doing a lot of dom stuff, so it kind of fit my personality that I was mean.

C: Mm. Yeah.

K: I’ve gotten less mean over the years, but I was really mean in my 20s. I just had a lot of anger.

C: Since we’re talking about it, one of the first – we met at college.

K: Yeah.

C: Which we’ve talked about before. But you asked me “my car is broken down. Can you come pick me up from work?”

K: Yeah.

C: And so, I went to the club where you were working, and the bouncer was like “hey, it’s this much to get in.” “I’m here to pick up Kisstopher.” “Oh, okay. Go ahead and go on in and wait.” And then the first thing I hear when I’m walking in – before I’m even past the bouncer

K: (laughs)

C: He’s like, “here.” “Hey motherfuckers. You fuckers better tip. These girls are working hard for their money. Don’t be an asshole.”

K: (laughs)

C: Just like shouting at the customers to tip.

K: And I wasn’t even on the stage.

C: No.

K: I was pissed. I was like, “she is dancing her ass off. Somebody better get up there and give her some fucking money.”

C: (laughs)

K: “Quit being such assholes. I see you looking. All of you are looking.” And I would go around to each table and say, “get up. Go to the stage.”

C: Mhm.

K: “Knock it off.”

C: (laughs)

K: And so, everybody knew, but all of my regulars loved that about me.

C: Yeah. So, I’m saying that was – that was definitely your personality. I could see how being a dom would be suited to your personality, there. But I’ve seen people try that in non-sex work as bosses, and it’s just so awkward for everybody involved. Because… I know people, and it’s usually men, who think that being a boss is equivalent to just being an asshole.

K: Yeah.

C: And so, they – like, you saying about voice – my patient voice – reminded me that most of them, like… their register is so fake.

K: Yeah.

C: Because this is the way that I normally talk. This is my talking.

K: Yeah.

C: But I could do the ridiculous register. Where I could be like (in a deep voice) “I have a deep voice, and this is just the way that I talk. What do you mean I’m putting on a voice? This is my voice.” Yeah, my vocal cords can do that. I just feel so ridiculous doing so.  But I know people who are people managers who… do that and operate through just like… not being kind. Even to people who are professionals and good employees. Like, try to reinforce the idea you have no options. You can’t leave.

K: Yeah.

C: Which always leads to people leaving.

K: Yes. That’s huge in Japan. Everybody’s replaceable. You are not a special flower. You’re completely replaceable. And so, every job that

C: You are both replaceable and unhireable.

K: Yes. And so, for me, I’ve always known – we were talking about this the other day – I would quit my job and then, when I was English teaching – and I think I’ve said this before – I would quit my job and then get another one the next day.

C: Yes.

K: Because there was just like so many English teaching jobs like 15 years ago, here, now even longer. Now, not so many as – but, like, literally one week I filled out like 50 applications.

C: I think now it’s just because of Corona Virus. I think, if it weren’t for Covid, that

K: No, there are fewer jobs out there. Like, even before Covid.

C: Okay.

K: And I only know this because I do – used to. I quit doing research for clients. But I used to research how many teaching jobs were available and such, so that way they came in and said, “I’m looking”, I can say, “okay. I looked today. There are 65 jobs on the website.”

C: Yeah.

K: “How many – tell me why each – let’s go through these.”

C: Each of those 65 is

K: Not the right one for you. And then I tell them realistically what to expect. And then when I work with my executives – because I did a little bit of executive coaching, not deliberately, but that’s what the client needed.

C: Right.

K: And it’s always about finding someone who’s willing to mentor. And, once you have somebody who’s willing to mentor you in a professional environment, you should stay in that environment as long as you can and learn as much as you can because that is a really rare thing. And I think you don’t understand how rare it is. Even in Japan, I have clients that their employer is paying for their PHD. And It old them, “as longa s you have an agreement with your employer, they’re paying for your PHD. That’s well and good. How many years do you have to give them in return for that PHD?”

C: Right.

K: And that’s when you make the decision, like, “can I do this for another 10 years” because some companies have a 10-year rule, some have a 3-year rule.

C: 10 years is ridiculous because the PHD programs here don’t cost that much. Like, if you’ve got a PHD, your salary can pay off a year in a couple of months.

K: And then I also know companies that pay for language training. And I tell everybody, “when you get training through a company, ask them what they’re expecting in return.”

C: Yeah.

K: And know what you’re going into. And so, for me, I always go into a job with my eyes open. And… knowing what it is they’re expecting of me. And I find that, in Japan, they’re much more honest about what they expect of you than in the United States. Is my lived experience.

C: Yeah, I guess I agree with that. Because the company I work for is Australian, and I think each manager kind of does their own thing with their training budget. So, I know how much money I have to spend to train people, and I can also ask for more if I don’t – if I spent it all, and I can justify getting more, then they’ll give me more. But I know that I’m very clear with what I expect. And it’s not “work here for longer.” It is – I do have conversations about, “I want you to keep working here. How can we make the working environment to where you want to keep working and where you feel like you can talk to me if there are issues?” But it’s basically just – training is meant to make you better at your job.

K: So, you started at this company as an employee. Just a regular employee.

C: Technically, I’m a contractor, but I agree with what you’re saying, yes. I started as a line worker, let’s say.

K: Yeah. And how do you feel being a manager? Because at your last job, you did the same thing.

C: Right.

K: You really enjoy upward mobility.

C: Yeah. I’ve done this at a lot of jobs. I tend to… Silicon Valley, a lot of the focus – before they passed laws against companies inquiring – was about how much money you make because it could determine how much money you make at your next company. But I tended to focus on

K: Which is still in practice here in Japan. (laughs)

C: Yes. Yes, I was interviewing for one company, and they said, “well how much did you make at your last job?” And I said a number, and they’re like, “there’s no way you made that much.” “No, that’s really what I made.”

K: Yeah.

C: “Well, we’re gonna need pay stubs and tax returns before we negotiate.” No. You’re not.

K: (laughs)

C: No. I’m not doing that. Sorry, no.

K: Yeah. So, in Japan, it’s no joke. It’s for real.

C: Yeah. But in Australia, I’m not sure if it’s legal. I think it’s maybe quasi-legal but discouraged to base salaries on previous salaries. But I always like to be able to say, “I got this percentage of a raise every year.” That’s my focus.

K: So, did they ask your salary?

C: They did not ask my salary. They asked what I wanted my salary to be. They never asked what my previous salary was.

K: Oh, okay.

C: Every company in Japan has asked what my previous salary was, and most of them have said, “can we see pay slips?”

K: And so, for me, with the hiring process, I don’t enjoy that part of being an employer, either. I really, really don’t enjoy interviewing people. It is… just the bane of my existence. And the reason for it being is because I can usually see so much more than they’re saying.

C: Yeah.

K: And I feel like I’m violating their emotional privacy, but what I do for a living is see people, look behind the mask. And

C: Often for people who don’t know how to express what is behind the mask.

K: Yeah. And so, interviewing people as a therapist, I’m like… “mmm. I know you really need this job, but I know that as soon as something better comes along, you’re gonna skidaddle.”

C: Yeah.

K: And the thing that clients need in therapy is consistency.

C: See, and I think that when I’m interviewing people for jobs, I know that as soon as something better comes along, they’re gonna leave. The question is

K: But are they gonna skedaddle?

C: Some of them will skedaddle. Some of them will leave in a slow way.

K: Yeah.

C: But the question is always “what does better mean to them?” Because then I can evaluate the chance that they will find something better in a timeframe that’s reasonable. Because I assume that everybody is eventually going to leave. Like

K: Yeah. I assume that, too.

C: You know, I hired somebody straight out of school. I assume that she will probably stay at the company for 4 or 5 years, and then she’ll be like, “you know. I feel like I’ve learned all I can from being in this company. I’m going to move somewhere else and learn new stuff.”

K: Yeah.

C: And I accept that as just part of the normal working cycle. So, I do see – okay, the person’s applying for a job because they need a job. Very few times is it, “they’re just bored.” And those people, I tend to be more wary about because they don’t need a better off to leave. All they need to do is get bored.

K: Yeah.

C: But most people need a job, and if a better job comes along, they’ll leave. So, my job is to… make sure that it’s the best job it can be. And if we get… outcompeted. If the better job comes along, and they leave, for me it’s no hard feelings.

K: So, do you go into each position with the desire to be a manager?

C: I go into each position with the desire to move up. And that doesn’t always mean being a manager. Like, this company said you don’t have to be a manager to move up. And the reason that I chose to be a manager was because… I didn’t want somebody else to be hired to be my manager. My manager left, and I said, “you know” – and my grand-boss, as it were, my manager’s boss said, “you don’t have to take this position to move up. You’re doing really well. We can give you a more senior technical position. Give you a promotion. You’ll keep moving up.”

And it was, like… well, actually, I don’t want somebody else in the mix. I’m comfortable with my… boss’s boss. I’m comfortable with my team. I don’t want that disrupted. And that’s why I said, “okay, yeah. Let me – let me put myself forward as a candidate for taking on this position.”

K: Are you happy with that choice?

C: Yeah, I’m very happy with that choice. I regard management as a technical skill, so for me, it’s not like “oh no, I don’t get to exercise my technical skills.” It’s just, “cool, I get to exercise a different one.”

K: So, for me as a boss, something I find frustrating is that nobody has the same urgency as me.

C: Right.

K: Because I’m right now, in my head, there’s about 15 things that aren’t getting done this week that are really challenging. And I’m responsible for some of them, and I’m not responsible for some of them. And I’m just as hard on myself as I am on others. And so, I’m looking at… and I feel like with a boss, I ebb and flow that way. Like, if I’m meeting my expectations, I expect everyone else to meet my expectations. If I’m not meeting my expectations, I cut people a lot of slack. So, it leads to me being really inconsistent as a boss.

C: Yeah.

K: And really hard to predict.

C: And that’s interesting – because we’ve said before on the podcast, because it’s true, that you are not my therapist. But… you are kind of my executive coach. And I’ve been clear with my job about that. That I get advice from you about this.

K: Yeah.

C: And one thing you and I focus on in that dynamic is capacity management.

K: Yes.

C: And what you were going back to about saying doing the job that you can do you on your worst day. So, I know that I could mostly do more. But I could do more in the short-term at the risk of burning out and getting less done overall over the longer term. And so, when people don’t have that urgency… I think, “okay. Good. You’re – you’re setting yourself up for the long-term.” I think, like, people who just truly don’t want to work… I’m usually sympathetic to their desire to get paid without working. Because I’m a proponent of universal basic income. But most companies can’t afford that kind of employee.

K: Mm.

C: So, although I am sympathetic to it, I can’t really manage somebody who… their primary desire is to do no work. I don’t have anybody like that working for me at this company. I haven’t had anybody like that working for me at this company. I’m very happy everybody is there to work. But not so hard that they burn out. And that is actually one of my bigger worries with employees is that they will burn out. So, it’s one of the things that I spend time… managing is their workloads. So that they don’t have to… run their engines on full all the time.

K: I think that… you do a really great job with understanding capacity and capacity management. Because you and I talk a great deal about it because, when we first met, you just vehemently disagreed with me about it. But you also weren’t as aware of the fact that you’re disabled.

C: I was also 23 and already going through burn out.

K: Yeah.

C: So, I think, looking back, okay. Objectively, I was terrible at capacity management.

K: Yeah. And so, it’s something we’ve really cultivated, and I find that I can cultivate that in you. And it doesn’t bother me. But cultivating that in other people, I find it to be very tiresome.

C: Mhm.

K: And I think that… there are moments when it’s challenging for me with you, and I tell you, “do it your way, then.”

C: I know there are moments when I’m playing a video game or whatever, and you’re like, “I want you do to this work” and I’m like, “capacity.”

(laughter)

C: And we usually don’t say

K: We had a bunch of capacity issues this past weekend because nothing I set as the goals were completed at all.

C: Yeah.

K: And I was just like, “ugh. Urgh.” But then, even I did not complete any of my goals. So, I was like, “okay. Everybody’s sick. Everybody’s tired.” And, like… we always get weird things. One of the things that I’m dealing with is called PoTs.

C: Yeah.

K: We’ve talked about it before. So,

C: Postural orthopedic tachycardia syndrome.

K: Yeah. So, like, I need to change – as soon as we’re done recording, I need to change my position

C: Orthostatic, not orthopedic, but yeah.

K: So, like, my voice is going in and out because I’m yawning

C: You’re getting dizzy. You’re starting to sway. Yeah.

K: Yeah. It’s a trip. So, I’ve got that thing going on. And then you have a frozen shoulder. Like

C: It is in the “so-ing” (thawing in Japanese) phase

K: Yeah, you’re thawing your frozen shoulder. And that’s really messing with you because it’s messing with your sleep.

C: It sounds cooler when you call it adhesive capsulitis than when you call it frozen shoulder.

K: Okay.

C: But in Japan, they call it 50 shoulder.

K: You’re not 50.

C: It’s not called 50-year-old shoulder. It’s just called 50 shoulder.

K: Because you can do 50% of the stuff with your arm?

C: I have no idea. So, I said something about “goju kata” – I had to look it up because I didn’t know the term. So, I looked it up and went to see the orthopedist. And he was like, “yup. That’s what it is.” And then told me, “yup. Hai. Furozen Shoruda.” Okay. So, even Japanese people think the traditional term for it is bizarre.

K: (laughs) So, for me and my expectations of people, I have unrealistic expectations of the world. Which creates an underlying resentment.

C: Yeah. And I’m – I’m really an optimist. And it doesn’t always seem like it, but sometimes, my optimism is like, “I’m at a minus 100, and I’m optimistic I can get to minus 90.” And so, it can seem… dour. But, really, it’s optimism. I’m thinking things can get better. It doesn’t make them good; it just makes them better.

K: Yeah. And I do the whole more goods than bad is always my

C: Yeah.

K: More productive than unproductive. And so, as long as it shakes out for the week, I’m happy that way.

C: Yeah.

K: I find that I am happier not being a people boss, and I think… it probably comes from my history. And…

C: I think the other thing, too – and I know we’re nearing the end of the podcast – but the other thing is that you are… tasked with the emotional wellbeing of each of your clients.

K: Yes.

C: And it is not your responsibility to make them feel better.

K: No.

C: But it is still a kind of stewardship, and I think that people managing is the same kind of thing. I can’t make my people happy, but I can do what’s within my power to take away things about the job that are making them unhappy. To create opportunities that will let them be happy if they take them. And then they have to manage themselves within that. So, I think that adding on top of that… expecting you to do that for employees would just be too much.

K: Yeah. It is a bridge too far, I think. So, be happy I’m not your boss. All you beautiful Musick Notes.

C: (laughs)

K: And I’m sorry Chad’s not your boss. All you beautiful Musick Notes. And, on that note, we’re going to head on over to the take two. And, today on the take two, we are talking about the importance of beta readers.

C: Cool.

K: And… yeah. And I have no idea what we’re talking about next week, but I look forward to finding out with you.

C: Me, too.

K: And we stayed on topic this whole podcast.

C: Like a boss.

K: Right? So, it’ll be really interesting to see, like, if more people will listen to it or bail or what.

C: They’ll listen to it for the secrets of being a boss.

K: Oh my gosh. Eyeroll. So

(laughter)

C: I roll too, sometimes. We both roll.

K: Yeah. So, follow us on over to the Patreon and check out the take two. If not, I’ll – we’ll talk to you next week.

C: Bye.

K: Bye.