K: So, lately I’ve been thinking a lot about respect and how people assume that respect is culturally different. And my experience – at least in the United States and Japan – is that the desire for respect is not culturally different. The mandate for respect in terms of… teams being able to work successfully together is not different. But the expression of respect is completely different. At least, in my lived experience in Japan and my lived experience in the U.S. What do you think?

C: That matches my experience, too. So, let me tell you what it means to me. Yeah, sorry for that.

K: (laughs) Y’all didn’t see the face I made at him. It was like, “really, Chad?”

(laughter)

K: And I felt it come over my face, and I wasn’t trying to do it, but I was like, “really? Okay.”

(laughter)

K: So, the first “really, Chad?” of the podcast.

C: I had to look up the lyrics in advance to make sure I could get it right.

K: Yeah. So, like, coming hot out the gate with the “really, Chad” in the first few minutes.

C: Yeah.

K: Right on. Let the people know what they’re in for. So, what does it mean to you, baby cakes?

C: So, what I found is that in – in the U.S., respect is shown by treating people as your equals. As one of the primary ways you show people respect.

K: I think, for cis – heterosexual white men.

C: Well…

K: To put it into context, we are talking about what it means to you as a cis-gendered, heterosexual white man.

C: Right.

K: From America.

C: Right.

K: That – that wasn’t how I experienced respect in the United States. But we’ll get to that.

C: right.

K: What does it mean to you?

C: To me, respect means that I am treated as an equal by my superior at a job or whatever.

K: Okay when you give respect or when you receive respect?

C: When I receive respect.

K: Okay, so we’re talking about what respect looks like when you received it in the United States or how the actions that the people did were perceived as respect by you?

C: Yeah.

K: Alright.

C: Both. Yeah.

K: Yeah. See, it’s a complex thing.

C: It is.

K: Yeah.

C: Because it is two-sided.

K: Yes.

C: And I think this is one of the primary differences – in my experience – between how I navigate respect in the U.S. versus how I navigate it in Japan. So, in the U.S., it was almost symmetrical. I received respect the same way I gave respect, which is by treating people as equals.

K: Okay.

C: In Japan, if you treat a… a superior as your equal, they often get offended.

K: Almost always get offended.

C: Right.

K: Because they are not.

C: But if you treat somebody who is lower in the social order as an equal, it makes them very uncomfortable.

K: Mhm. Because they’re not.

C: Right. And so, my experience in Japan in the working culture in particular has been that respect is shown by showing … like… deference to your superiors.

K: Mhm.

C: Or by showing… assertiveness with the people who are underneath you.

K: I think making room is how I think of it.

C: Okay.

K: Letting them speak. Encouraging them to speak.

C: Yeah, in a way that I find very condescending. In Japan, at least – is like, “why don’t you go ahead and speak?” Not like, “would you like to speak” or anything. Just, it is now your turn to produce words. And you know I have a thing about being told to produce words. So – and I think that the…

K: See, for me… as… a black, Cherokee, Jewish – and I always leave out the Dutch because I find that to be the least interesting part of my heritage. Which I’m trying to stop doing

C: Mhm.

K: Because… I wonder is it racist that I leave that out? Like, I only talk about the marginalized portions of my identity. I think because I’ve never really interacted with the Dutch part of my heritage and identity?

C: Yeah.

K: Agendered, pansexual human. I find that… when I was younger, I was – and then, too, the jobs that I had – the jobs that I’ve had over my lifespan weren’t really jobs that… garnered respect.

C: Yeah.

K: You know, being in the sex – the sex industry, you don’t really garner respect. Being a dominatrix, it’s respect of a sort, but it’s in the play setting.

C: Being a waitress.

K: Being a waitress, being a model. And even when we owned companies, people that knew my history – it’s so weird – people that knew my history in the United States… even when I was doing therapy and like, teaching their kid – like, major breakthroughs in their lives – always… I was always stratified. And I was always slotted in that former foster kid, former sex worker…

C: Yeah.

K: Slot. And that was it. And so all – everything was condescending. Like, “ohh. Aren’t you – wow, you can get an A when you go to school and study? Oh wow, you can start a business?”

C: Well and thinking of when we were running a business together, I’d see the rapid shift of when people would come in and you – you’d be sitting at the reception desk acting as a receptionist.

K: Yeah.

C: and there would be this kind of aura of “okay, yeah, it’d totally make sense that this woman of color” because that’s how you’re perceived

K: Yeah.

C: “Is the receptionist. And so, I’m going to be slightly condescending.”

K: Yeah.

C: And then… “did you also know she’s the owner?”

K: Yes.

C: And it was a complete shift. Like, oh, okay. “No, I could see that you’re part white” was sometimes how it felt like.

K: Yeah.

C: Like, “I can respect that part.” The radical shift there I think is what I’m saying that, in Japan socially… it’s expected that if somebody is acting as a receptionist that you treat them as the receptionist rather than that you treat them as a potential equal.

K: Yes.

C: Even if they’re the owner.

K: And so, there’s no course correction when you find out they’re the owner.

C: Right. Because they’re acting in that role of the receptionist.

K: Yes. And so, for me… I feel more respected in Japan than I did in the United States. Because everybody comes at me at my role.

C: Right.

K: And when I shift roles – so, like, as… so, in Japan, I’m “sensei.” And everybody calls me “sensei.” And… that’s – if you look at the – if you look up the translation, it translates to teacher, but that’s not what it means. It means person of a higher status.

C: Yeah.

K: Person of respect. And… when I go to… my… doctor’s – like, a few weeks back I went to my doctor, and they had to make an appointment for me. And they were very clear that I was “sama”

C: Yeah.

K: Which means I’m the client. Because they were talking about my interpreter, which is Rasta, and me, “sama.” Which I speak some Japanese, but they do need to have my interpreter in the room if they’re going to say more complex things.

C: Right. And “sama” is more polite than “san.”

K: Yeah.

C: So, “san” is the everyday familiar – “sama” is slightly more polite, but it’s not a position of deference. They’re two axes – it’s a whole thing.

K: And “sama” usually indicates client.

C: Right. Yeah.

K: So, I like how stratified and how nakedly stratified Japan is. And some people don’t. I prefer – I personally prefer it.

C: Right.

K: I like to know who deeply to bow at everyone.

C: Mhm.

K: I like to know who gets an “ojigi” – and that’s just like a… “whatsup” but the chin goes down rather than up.

C: Yeah.

K: I like… who speaks first. I like who gets on and off an elevator first. I like who goes through the door first. I like that everything has an order, and all of that order is based on station. And when you change your station, all of that changes. And, for me… I like that because nobody is stuck. So, I think there’s a – at first glance, it feels very stratified and impossible to move up.

C: Right.

K: And… there – if you’re a native Japanese person, it really is. There are tracks from, like, when you get hired at a Japanese company, you’re on a specific track and all of that, and it’s really

C: And getting hired at that company depends on what college you went to, and what college you went to depends on what high school you went to, and what high school you went to depends on what jr. high, so you better do well on those jr. high tests.

K: Yeah. So, it doesn’t depend on what jr. high, it depends on what you scored on the tests.

C: Yeah.

K: So… and we could argue that what jr. high – I don’t – that’s a whole different conversation.

C: Yeah. It is.

K: That’s a digression I don’t feel.

C: But it begins in childhood.

K: Yeah.

C: Is what I mean to say.

K: Yeah. But being outside of that – being a foreigner – I like it because it’s so easy for me to switch. And it’s been so easy for me to climb the ladder.

C: Mhm.

K: And it’s been a rocket ascension. It took years for me to get what I have, but, in Japan, establishing everything that we’ve done in the past 14 years… amazes Japanese nationals. And… we get so much deference and so much respect for hanging in there.

C: Yeah.

K: Through the rough years. Because I started as English teacher, you started as an English teacher. And working your way out of that – working your way out of English teaching – anyone who’s an English teacher and who doesn’t want to be will tell you the struggle is real. And for those who are really good at English teaching, they’ll tell what you an amazing job that is.

C: Right.

K: Because I think it’s – I’ve said this before on the podcast, I think it’s a good job.

C: Yeah.

K: If you enjoy teaching. And… I have clients that are just so amazing at it. And really happy. And I have clients who are good at it and miserable.

C: Yeah.

K: And then I have clients who are horrible at it and miserable.

C: And you have, probably – I have known quite a few teachers who are horrible at it that love it.

K: Mhm.

C: Where they’re like, “I just love this” and everybody around them wonders how they don’t know that they’re terrible at it.

K: Mhm.

C: So, I’ve found the – the role-based respect in Japan is really moment – moment-to-moment. It’s whatever role you’re in. So, I never hear from Japanese nationals, “oh, you were a former English teacher, and therefore I am going to treat you based on that.” Rather than, “I’m going to treat you like right where you are at this moment.”

K: Yeah.

C: And if you look at Parliament, like those are the people in Parliament. In the U.S., congress and… House of Representatives – you’ll hear like, “oh, before she was in the house, she was a waitress.” Or “before he was in the Senate, he was a lawyer or a doctor.”

K: You get that here too.

C: I think you get that here, but everybody kind of… not everybody, but I think it’s

K: No. You’re enamored with… your respect and deference that you have for the Japanese political system, I don’t have.

C: Okay.

K: And I think that’s because you don’t watch the debates.

C: No, I don’t.

K: And… like, fistfights on the floor happen.

C: I think it’s been a couple of years, but I do tend to read about settled outcomes rather than debates.

K: People jumping over desks at people.

C: Yeah.

K: Happen. So, for me… there’s – it’s – it’s a wild ride. It – even if you don’t speak Japanese, y’all should just – just google “fights in Japanese Parliament.”

C: Yeah.

K: They go down. There’s like – it’s like, a rumble.

C: It just makes me think they need taller tables. It should not be that easy

K: Yeah, it’s a group fight. It is not just like one person.

C: (laughs)

K: It is like 5 or 6 people fighting 5 or 6 people, and I was like, “what is this madness?” And the first time I ever saw it – and I’m trying to move away from the word madness; it’s ableist. I don’t like it. But that was actually what I thought, and I should say, “why is this so wild?” I’m trying to replace all of the things that have to do with mental illness in an ableist way to wild.

C: Yeah.

K: But I’m a work in progress. My apologies for that. But… it was wild to me. And I asked my girlfriend – I was like… “do they know I’m watching this?” Which was like the stupidest question

C: (laughs) Like, do they know that you, personally, are watching this?

K: Yeah, like me, personally – like, “they do know foreigners have access to this” was the thing I was asking.

C: Yeah.

K: Like, do they know that they is being televised internationally. And she says, “yes. Can’t you see their passion?”

C: (laughs)

K: And I was like, “that’s one word for it.”

C: Yes, that is.

(laughter)

K: I was like – I’d be scared to speak up. And it’s so funny because, like… people knew that the – that it was about to go down and started to move away from the people who were getting heated.

C: Mhm.

K: And then the people who were in the fight started moving toward the people who were getting heated. So, like, I watched the whole thing of people making the decision to get in a fistfight.

C: Interesting.

K: Yeah, and nobody was arrested.

C: So, like being at a concert and being like, “there’s a mosh pit forming. Do I want to be in it or not?”

K: Yeah, like totally, totally mosh pit. And so, it hasn’t happened in the past… I don’t know, I want to say like 4 years or so?

C: Mhm.

K: And I think Abe being… chronically ill

C: Yeah.

K: Really took the tone down.

C: Mhm.

K: Because… in the past 5 years… Abe being chronically ill has become more and more evident.

C: Yes.

K: And when people were shocked by it, I think they must not have been watching Abe. And I’ve been able to be… in Abe’s presence. Like, I – we don’t – he would not know me, but I feel like I knew him. We met. What?

C: Yeah. You attended conferences that he spoke at. And spoke at him and that whole thing. Yeah.

K: Yeah. And there has been a deterioration. 

C: Yeah.

K: And what he has is – is a horrible – colitis is horrible.

C: Yeah, it is.

K: And I think everybody not talking about it… I think that that – that’s a difference in American and Japanese politics. Is if there’s a perceived weakness, they talk about it over and over ad nauseum.

C: In the U.S., you’re saying.

K: Yeah. And I think it’s weird because… there’s a lot of ableism in Japan.

C: Right.

K: But the ableism in Japan is so different than the ableism in the United States. And… that ties into respect, I think.

C: I think so. I think part – part of what you’re saying – not about the ableism part but about the speech – is that… it’s very hard.

K: I cannot get a comfortable temperature. I’m sorry if y’all just hear my blankets moving. Chad makes a face every time I move, and I’m flipping my blankets on and off because I’m trying to get a comfortable temperature for the listeners.

C: I’m just trying to get my eyes back to your eyes because you have distracting… qualities.

K: Mmmnn. Mmnn.

C: (laughs)

K: Every time I make noise. But you don’t do the sound anymore – thank you patrons – you don’t do the sound anymore, so why are you looking at me like that?

C: We’re able to pay somebody to do that so, yes, thank you for all our patrons.

K: We love our Musick Notes. We love our patrons. Thank you, listeners.

C: So, something that I discovered on my own. First person ever to observe it. It’s not something I could have discovered by reading any of the hundreds of books that say it. Is that Japanese people

K: (laughs) But do hundreds of books say it?

C: Yes, hundreds of books do say it.

K: Really?

C: Yeah. That Japanese people don’t do sarcasm.

K: Yes, they do.

C: They do irony. But they don’t do sarcasm by tone of voice.

K: so, they don’t do tonal sarcasm.

C: Right.

K: Okay. I think that they do.

C: I think that the younger generation does more of it because they see it a lot more.

K: I think the older generation does it, too.

C: Okay. Maybe I’m just not… clued in enough. But I’m just thinking about in the U.S. politics like, how… you know

K: Oh, are you saying politicians don’t do sarcasm?

C: Yeah.

K: I thought you were saying Japanese nationals in general don’t do sarcasm.

C: The books say Japanese nationals in general, but I haven’t found that to be true. I’ve found, when you get to know people, they’re just as sarcastic as any other group.

K: Yes. Full range of expression just like everybody else at the individual level.

C: Right.

K: Just like any group does. They’re not a monolith.

C: Right. But I think politicians tend not to, and I think that’s because… mostly it’s transcripts.

K: Yeah. I think – yeah, I think because you’re not watching.

C: That’s what I’m wondering is – because I mostly read the results rather than watch it.

K: Yeah.

C: I’m not a big video watcher in the first place.

K: Yeah, so I don’t think you really know much about what goes down in Japanese politics because you don’t watch like any of the city council meetings, you don’t watch… you don’t watch any of it.

C: No.

K: Because you’re not a visual – we’ve talked about in the past – you’re not a visual person.

C: Yeah.

K: And so, I don’t read any of it.

C: Right.

K: I watch it because I want to look at people’s faces.

C: But I have heard

K: Glean everything I can.

C: I have heard a lot of… U.S. politics over the past several months until events were concluded. And… the way that somebody could say something like, “the esteemed gentleman from Kentucky” and make that sound like the worst thing you could possibly be.

K: Mm. So, that’s disdain, not sarcasm.

C: And that goes to the respect thing. See, I’m trying to bring it back on topic.

K: Because you had a weird ramble?

C: Exactly.

K: Okay. You lost your way.

C: I lost my way…

K: And now you’re back.

C: I’m looking at you for guidance… and I’m back. Yeah.

K: And so, why are we focusing on politics? I thought we were going to be talking about respect at the personal level that you had experienced. Because you’re supposed to be telling us what it means to you. (laughs)

C: I think I said what it means to me. What it means to me

K: No, what – so, for me, I think that… respect… has to be given freely.

C: Right.

K: It can’t be demanded. And in my lived experience, if you think you will be respected, you are more likely to be respected than if you think that you won’t. And for me, personally… what I’ve experienced is that I get defensive if I don’t think I’m going to be respected. Like, before anybody speaks, I’ll be defensive. Or I’ll be too wordy, and I’ll overexplain and I had someone tell me – I think I’ve said this before – say, – tell me that I don’t need to validate my experience.

C: Mhm.

K: And that’s just my favorite thing. I know I’ve said it before on the podcast.

C: That was a changing day in your – in your professional life.

K: It was a changing day in my mindset.

C: Yup.

K: I was like, “thank you.” And it changed my entire life. I have never validated my existence since.

C: Mhm.

K: Because I was like, “whoa. That is a good read. That is what I’m doing.”

C: (laughs)

K: That was like – and not read in the shade way – that was just good insight.

C: So, I think – yeah, I heard a lot of things growing up about, “you’ve got to demand respect.” And what I found that to mean in practice is that… either the person doesn’t respect you, and you try to let them know that they had better at least pretend to or the person does respect you but isn’t doing it in a way that feels respectful, so their expression of respect is not perceived as respect, and you help them adjust it so that there’s not a mismatch between the two.

K: Mhm.

C: But the high school that I went to talked a lot about “ROSR” and they’d say, “real or simulated respect” which was… meant like, if you don’t respect a teacher, don’t ever say that. Pretend that you do.

K: Yeah.

C: And I’ve found that that disrespect always comes through.

K: Yeah.

C: It’s always evident when people don’t respect each other. And I think that… I think people deserve respect by default, but that it’s something that is very easy to lose.

K: Yeah.

C: Like, it doesn’t take much for me to feel like somebody has lost the right to my respect, but if I know nothing about a person, I’ll say, “okay. They have a default level of respect with me.”

K: Yeah, but your whole affable brand makes it really hard to tell.

C: Yes, it does. And… because I – my feelings get hurt when people disrespect me.

K: Yes.

C: And so, I don’t want to give them an indication of that. And I’m

K: I usually run ahead of everybody in your life.

C: Yeah.

K: And tell you, “this is what’s wrong wit them. This is what I don’t like about them. This is what they’re gonna do.” And then when they do it, it doesn’t… cut you to the core. Because I’m always trying to avoid your feelings being hurt.

C: Yeah. It irks me. Like… one particular thing in Japan that irks me is being called “Chad-sensei” or “Chad-san.”

K: Mm. But you don’t like Mr. chad in English.

C: No, I don’t. And it’s the same kind of thing

K: But it’s a southern thing. In southern households, you’re really – and in the… African American community, it’s really big to be like, “Miss.”

C: Oh, okay.

K: Miss Robin or Miss Kisstopher

C: I was so confused for a moment. I thought you were saying “Chad-sensei” is a southern thing. I was like, “why would they use”

K: Mr. Chad is a southern thing.

C: No, I get that you’re saying specifically the words “Mr. Chad”

K: Yeah.

C: Yeah.

K: Chad-sensei is not a southern thing.

C: Okay. Good. That’s a relief. It accords with my beliefs about the world.

K: I think the confusion comes in is that the Japanese believe that all Americans want to be called by their first name.

C: Right. Even though it’s considered rude to call somebody by their first name unless they’ve invited you to. There’s a whole phrase for “I invite you to call me by my first name.”

K: In Japanese.

C: In Japanese.

K: Yeah. And there’s also a phrase in English.

C: Right.

K: It’s rude to do it in English.

C: And so, they’ll – they’ll give the respect of the “sensei” or the “Sama” but the disrespect of the first name, and it’s just confusing for me.

K: And I think people that hold onto that – it’s a losing battle.

C: And that’s why I say it irks me. Because I know I’m not gonna win that battle. I’m not gonna shift them on it. But I

K: I tell people that tell – call me “Kisstopher-san”

C: Mhm.

K: I tell them, “oh. Pardon me. Please call me Musick-san.”

C: Yeah.

K: And I say it in Japanese, and then they call me “Musick-san.” I don’t – I don’t understand why people are struggling so.

C: I don’t know.

K: I think because people let stuff slide that gets on their nerves.

C: I think so. And you know that I do that.

K: Yeah. I don’t.

C: You know that I will let things slide until it is on my nerve, and they’re just dancing there like… doing shuffle ball change. And I’ll be like, “nope. Get off of my nerve now.” And they’ll be like, “but I’m – I’m not done with my moves yet.”

K: Yeah, so I tell people if you wait until someone’s habituated into calling you something, it’s really hard to get them to call you something else.

C: Yes.

K: and so, the first “Kisstopher-san” that I hear, I politely tell them – and yes, today, I am admitting that I speak some Japanese. Next week, I will tell you that I speak no Japanese. And to me, that’s the indicator of the realness.

C: We can delete this from the sound and from the transcript if you need.

K: (laughs) Usually, what I like to do is have Rasta say stuff for me.

C: Mhm.

K: I don’t say anything. And then… they’ll see I’m understand, and they’ll be really confused. “Do I still talk to Rasta, or do I talk to you?” And I think, “this is you not knowing how to work with an interpreter.”

C: Yes.

K: You’re supposed to speak to the person you are talking to. And then the interpreter will speak to them. You’re not ever supposed to speak to the interpreter.

C: Right.

K: So, just a little etiquette lesson there for…

C: For anybody working with an interpreter. Yes.

K: Yeah.

C: Yes.

K: And so, it’s true even if you’re dealing with someone that has a sign-language interpreter; you speak to the person, and then let them look at their interpreter. You don’t talk to the interpreter.

C: Yeah.

K: Because that’s – that’s not the person you’re actually talking to.

C: Right.

K: So…

C: Just like when the interpreter says, “I” they mean the person they are speaking on behalf of, not themselves.

K: Yes. So, I like Closer because it’s a show that actually stars a deaf actress that talks a lot about this. And, being hard of hearing, there’s a lot of stuff I deal with on not being able to hear. And I really – that – so, we have transcripts because inclusivity is sexy, baby. And I tweet that out all the time because I believe it.

C: Yes.

K: I believe being inclusive is sexy as hell.

C: And when we record, I look at you, so that you can read my lips in case you miss something that you can’t hear.

K: Yeah.

C: And so… I feel like that level of personal respect between us has been developed over the years. Like, I’ve always respected you, you’ve always respected me. But we’ve learned better how to express it so the other one receives it exactly as intended.

K: Yeah.

C: And I think that’s what I’ve found more difficult in Japan than getting respect. I feel like people respect me, broadly. But that… they don’t always… do it in a way that makes me feel respected. And part of that, I think, is correcting people when they do that. And part of it, I think, is me being sensitive about it.

K: I think that because you’re affable… I don’t think that affability plays well in Japan. I think it plays well in English.

C: Yeah.

K: but I don’t think… that it plays well in Japanese.

C: Yeah.

K: Because Japanese has affability built into the language.

C: Right.

K: And so, for me, until I get to know somebody outside of their setting… like, for a teacher, they’re always going to be “sensei” and that’s what they’re gonna rock.

C: Right.

K: And the same thing for a cashier. The same thing for a banker.

C: Mhm.

K: They’re always going to speak in – the same thing with nurse and doctors – but then seeing them socially, they speak differently.

C: Yes.

K: In social settings. So, that politeness – that affability – being built in, I think there’s no way for you to ingratiate yourself in the way that you do in English.

C: Yeah, I think – I think so, too. Because I – I correspond with a number of people who have PHDs. And that usually starts off with, “hello Dr. So and so” and then I sign it, “Chad.” And then they write back and sign it with their first name, and then that’s our agreement that we are beyond the, you know, “Dr So and so” and “Dr. Musick” stage. We’re on a first-name basis.

K: Yeah, and I always start off my relationships with “please call me Kisstopher.”

C: Yeah.

K: That’s mostly because I hate nicknames.

C: Yes.

K: Don’t give me a nickname.

C: Yes.

K: You do not have my permission to give me a nickname.

C: The number of nicknames people have given you over the years that I have known you

K: Yeah.

C: Disrespectful. Let’s just say – disrespectful.

K: And I always tell them, “no. My name’s Kisstopher.”

C: Yeah.

K: “You can call me Kisstopher.” And so, I’m quick with the don’t touch me. I’m quick with the “call me Kisstopher” and so, that’s something I find that’s built into Japanese culture. Not being touched.

C: Yes.

K: And I love it. I don’t like in the United States how many people would hug me that I – like, I don’t know you. Why are you hugging me? We just met.

C: Well, they don’t want the coldness of a handshake. And Japan doesn’t do either.

K: Yes.

C: Which solves the issue.

K: And, like, for me, I don’t know if they’re going to try and cop a feel.

C: Mm. Yeah.

K: Because… y’all know I have double E breasts. Super proud of that. I tweet about it.

C: (laughs)

K: Talk about – I love them.

C: Yes.

K: I love them. But to hug and then get some side boob… it’s almost impossible not to.

C: Yes.

K: And then, y’all know I’ve had – I don’t know if I told this story, but I think I have on the podcast. Where people like… the weirdest was someone pressing their vagina, like going hip to hip.

C: Yeah. You did tell that one.

K: And that was so weird. So, I know how to hug and rock my hips back and all of that. And that’s just like… look at what has to go into a hug.

C: Right.

K: Like, I have to… plan to not have our pelvis touch. To avoid that. So, I don’t understand going in for the hug. And I know a lot of people that do the side hug and the side kiss. I’m like, “you’re clearly uncomfortable with hugging. Why are you doing this to me?”

C: Right? I didn’t ask for this.

K: And then the fist-bump. Why are we touching? Why do you need to touch me? I don’t know you.

C: Yeah.

K: I don’t know you.

C: I feel like, for the fist-bump, people need to stop just short and back away and do the explosion.

K: Well, I love Bob the drag queen and… Bob the drag queen was like – “otherwise known as the queen that doesn’t hug.”

C: Uh-huh.

K: “Because, no, I will not hug you. You can come to my meet and greet. You can pay to meet me, and no, I’m not going to hug you, and I’m not going to smile.”

C: Yeah.

K: “I don’t smile in pictures, and I don’t hug. Deal with it.”

C: Okay.

K: And I feel like, “thank you.” I don’t know you.

C: (laughs)

K: I don’t know you. And if you’re wearing a perfume, I have a highly sensitive nose. I’m going to smell you. All day long. Now, I know that Gina Tay back in the 70s taught everyone that’s what they’re supposed to do, and I know every Cosmo reader thinks that’s what they’re supposed to do, so that your scent lingers on them throughout the day. That’s gross. So, basically, you’re spraying me?

C: (laughs)

K: Marking your turf? Eww.

C: I also have feelings about that.

K: Gross. Don’t touch me.

C: I feel like, yes, because of the rash that I now have, I will remember you all day.

K: Right? I’m like, don’t touch me. So, in Japan, nobody touches me, and I love it. And… I have Americans being like, “I really miss being hugged.” And I say, “I’m not a hugger.”

C: Mhm.

K: I don’t hug. And I literally sit 6 feet away from my clients to prevent hugging. I’ve talked about this before.

C: Yeah.

K: I’m that, “I will give you tissue therapist.” I am not a hold you while you cry therapist.

C: Well, and there’s been no hug therapist in Nagoya for you to refer people to. Because, you know, there’s those – those cuddler and things in the U.S. where you can pay somebody to cuddle with you.

K: There was someone who was going to do hug therapy. I was totally into it.

C: Right.

K: I told them, “I will refer clients to you.”

C: Yeah.

K: I have literally had 3 clients that would’ve hopped ship to them, and then I don’t know. They just kind of went away.

C: Mmm.

K: Like, people come at me, and they’re like, “hey, I’m gonna open this practice.” And I’m like, “there’s a total need for you.” And I’m totally into it. And then they just kind of fade away. Or maybe they don’t think I’m being sincere that I would refer?

C: Yeah, you’re always sincere. But not everybody knows that.

K: Yeah. Because – if you need a hug therapist, and you need some hug therapy – which is a valid thing. It’s not sexy therapy. It’s where someone holds you while you cry.

C: And sex therapy is also a valid thing, but it’s not

K: Yeah. But hug – cuddle therapy is not. And then there are professional cuddlers. But in Japan, there are professional boyfriends and girlfriends that will cuddle you while you talk.

C: Well, and I’ve seen news stories about the professionals who will sleep with you. Not in the sexual way. Just like, in the same bed.

K: Yeah.

C: Sleep next to you in case you need somebody to sleep next to you.

K: Yeah. And then there’s also people who will pretend to be your fiancé.

C: Oh, yeah, the impersonators.

K: Yeah.

C: And they will show up at various events and they’ll like, make themselves a part of your life to the extent necessary to convince other people.

K: Yup.

C: I read a story… maybe a month ago about a guy in Tokyo who is making his living as “guy who does nothing.”

K: Uh-huh. Tell me about this.

C: So, you hire “guy who does nothing” to go with you places.

K: Uh-huh.

C: And he doesn’t do anything.

K: Okay.

C: He doesn’t give advice.

K: Okay.

C: He doesn’t do anything for you. But he just listens. This was his explanation of it. He just listens. And he might say, “mm. Thank you for telling me that.” Or something along those lines to acknowledge he’s heard it.

K: Mhm.

C: But he said that his clients – and he started doing it for free, and he got so busy that now he’s charging 100 dollars and hour or so to do it. And making his living at it.

K: Mhm.

C: His clients just value being able to say something to somebody without that person’s… opinion of them changing. Without being… offered advice or pity or… disdain or… just anything.

K: Mm.

C: Just somebody to just… take it in. And let them have it. And he said he’s gone with people to doctor’s appointments if they are nervous about going to the doctor alone. He says he’ll go to the doctor with them and just sit with hem while they’re at the doctor. Or… just… wherever.

K: He’s basically doing analysis.

C: Yeah, he’s basically doing analysis, but he walks around and goes places with them.

K: So, analysis is… a form of therapy where the therapist doesn’t speak. And they just provide… they say, “mhm. I’m listening.” It’s where – they act as a human sounding board, and they usually sit out of your eyesight. Like, they sit behind you, and they don’t say or do anything. And you figure out – analysis is if you let someone talk enough, they’ll figure out their own answers.

C: That’s what I find interesting about this is it wasn’t analysis. He said that people don’t really talk their problems to death with him. They just like having somebody around they know is not going to judge them. Who’s going to have the same level of respect for them – to bring it back around – at the end of the interaction as at the beginning. And he said some people have hired him more than 30 or 40 times to go on walks with them or just do whatever.

K: There’s a real loneliness problem in Japan. And throughout the world right now.

C: Yeah, there is.

K: And for everyone who’s having to go through what’s going on right now alone, I feel a lot of empathy for them. I feel super lucky – and I’ve been really honest about – on Twitter – about how fortunate I am that, when we first went into… lockdown, the first 8 months of lockdown, we were all together.

C: Yeah.

K: And now, Rasta’s back home even though things are worse. But, you know, new bed.

C: (laughs)

K: I tweeted all about him leaving us for his bed.

C: Yes. Well, in 2018, 2019, I don’t remember what year

K: Bastard. Being comfortable and warm. Not wanting to sleep on a sofa bed. Wanting to sleep on a new, luxury bed with a pillow-top mattress and everything.

C: A few years ago, before Covid, the U.K. declared that loneliness was a national epidemic in the U.K.

K: Did they?

C: Yeah. And instituted things like programs to help seniors who were lonely and… younger people who needed cheap rent connect.

K: Mhm.

C: To live together.

K: Oh, wow.

C: So that

K: I remember that. The bed let program.

C: Yeah.

K: Yeah.

C: That was to combat loneliness

K: Some of it was abused.

C: Yes. As I think any program is.

K: Yeah.

C: And so, I’m just imagining – just how much worse it must be for people, now that Covid has meant that that kind of thing… has mostly dropped off. And I know some of our – our Twitter followers are very lonely, and it’s tough that there’s nothing that If eel like I can do for them.

K: I’m usually up at 3 am Japan-time tweeting. So, like, I fall asleep early in the evening and then wake up again.

C: Right.

K: And then sometimes, I’m up all night. I don’t know – my sleep has been all over the place lately. I feel like my sleep is disrespecting me. My sleep rhythm. Because I don’t like it. I find it interesting – so, when we record these, I’m usually looking in my closet. Thinking about what I’m gonna wear the next day.

C: Mhm.

K: And – so, this is just completely off-topic, but I have like this… sort of – this sort of neon chartreuse shirt, but then I also – I know I’m not wearing the purple. I also have like a deep navy-blue shirt. And I’m torn between the two. I don’t know what I’m gonna wear tomorrow. I don’t know. I’m kind of – like, if I could mix the blue and purple – so, maybe I’ll do the deep blue tank top with the purple overshirt.

C: I was just thinking, why not wear both?

K: Yeah, I think – I think that’s what I’m doing. Then next week, I’ll probably do the chartreuse and the white.

C: Mhm.

K: Because the white’s just been sitting – I haven’t worn the white shirt in a long time.

C: Yeah.

K: I can’t remember the last time I wore the white shirt.

C: So, do you think it feels disrespected by you?

K: I think it does. I think my whole closet feels disrespected by me because half my clothes aren’t hung up. I have like a chair – two chairs – full of clothes that I need to put away. But I did dishes the other day, so I feel like I’m chipping in.

C: You are.

K: Yeah.

C: You always do.

K: You hate dishes, so me washing dishes, you’re like “thank you honey.” You’re like so effusive – so over the top. It’s beyond respect.

C: I am.

K: It’s beyond respect to worship. Like, “you are the goddess of my – center of my universe.”

C: And I tell myself, you know, if the sink were 6 inches higher, I wouldn’t feel this way. But I think I still would.

K: Yeah, you would.

C: (laughs)

K: Because the sink was 6 inches higher in the U.S. – we had a sink designed with the theory that it was the right height for you to do dishes, and you didn’t.

C: In the U.S., we had a very nice low flow dishwasher.

K: And you didn’t load the dishwasher, and you didn’t unload the dishwa – every now and then you did, but for the most part you didn’t.

C: Yeah.

K: and I think you broke up – because the dishwasher disrespected you – and this is relevant. You put those copper pans – I told you do not put them in the dishwasher – you put your copper pans in the dishwasher, and then they turned brown.

C: Yeah. And then

K: And you felt disrespected because they had to be polished afterwards.

C: Yes, I had to break out the ketchup and polish them.

K: Yes. And you were so… angry and hurt. You felt they had been defiled.

C: Somebody was surprised by the ketchup, and I don’t – I honestly don’t remember if it was you.

K: No, it was not me.

C: Somebody was like, “what are you doing with the ketchup on your pans?” I – this is. This works as well as good copper polish.

K: This sounds like a neighbor who used to come over. We don’t say his name because – we probably have.

C: Yeah. I think you’re right.

K: We shouldn’t.

C: I think you’re right.

K: Because he was super into our business.

C: Yes.

K: He would just wander into our backyard uninvited.

C: Yes.

K: And he would come into our house, like, knock and then open the door.

C: Yes.

K: And walk in.

C: Like somebody had told him you should knock before you go into other people’s houses, and he was like, “okay, I’ll knock before I go into people’s house” in a very literal sense.

K: Yeah. And if you’re a listener – I don’t think you are – but if you are, we dig you. We haven’t been in touch in, you know, 20 years, but we dig you.

C: (laughs)

K: Like 15 years, but we dig you.

C: Yeah.

K: They moved before we did.

C: Yes.

K: So…

C: Their fault. Not ours.

K: Yeah. So, in the United States, I felt like… respect… was really… cultural for me. I felt like… I always got met with – it was rare that first time meeting someone it was respect.

C: Yeah.

K: sometimes, I got met with resentment, I got met with envy, I got met with defensiveness, I got met with confusion. But it was rare that

C: It always seemed so contingent.

K: Yeah.

C: Like, “I will respect you if you act in the right way or dress the right way or in the right place” and that was for you.

K: Speak at the right volume, have the right tone. It’s the black tax.

C: Yeah. Whereas I got it kind of automatically, and that was… one of the first things that you were able to finally get through to me about, “look, this treatment is unequal.”

K: Yeah.

C: “And this is not because of the person because it’s the same person doing it. This is just because I’m not white, and I’m not a guy.”

K: Yeah. And so, in Japan, it’s reversed.

C: Yes.

K: People assume that… that I know how to act right, and that you don’t. And so, people usually… are wary of you. And respectful of me.

C: Yes.

K: And… I like… going out with Rasta because his hair makes him a Rockstar.

C: Mhm.

K: Because he has an afro. And… I tend to… the further I want people to stay away from me, the more foreign I act.

C: Yeah. That is a good… like, repellent.

K: Yeah because it was really nice in the doctor’s office. I was like, “this racism is so warm and comfy.”

C: (laughs)

K: The doctor’s office was packed, and no one would sit next to us. And I was like, “thank you.” Someone was coughing with their face mask on.

C: Thank you because the vaccine has not made it here yet.

K: No.

C: I understand there are people in the U.S. getting vaccines that is not the case here yet.

K: I was like, if your racism saves my life – yay. Happy about that.

C: Mhm.

K: So, yeah… I don’t know if we really talked about respect. I just felt like we had a good chin wag. Like we do every time. I feel like every time it’s a good chin wag about stuff.

C: wow. Yeah.

K: I feel like you did really good this episode, so you want me to be like, “we stayed on point this episode.” We did not. We never do.

C: I didn’t feel like we stayed on point so much as like, I’m struggling to display respect for you after you repeatedly used the phrase “chin wag.”

K: (laughs) So, we started with a wow, Chad, and ended with a wow, Kisstopher.

C: Yes.

K: Really Kisstopher? I’m standing by chin wag. I’m standing by it.

C: I hear that you are.

K: Yeah. I’m – me and – we had a good chin wag. And if you’d like to keep haring us have a great chin wag but would enjoy a chin wag about – now it’s too much.

C: It is too much.

K: Even for me, it’s too much.

(laughter)

K: Stop, Kisstopher. So, if you follow us on over to Patreon, we’re still going to be talking about books, but this time we’re going to be talking about books and rejection.

C: Yes.

K: And what it’s like to be a publisher, and what it was like for Chad to be rejected so many times, and what it was like to be rejecting people. So many people. And… how to handle that with grace and respect.

C: Yes.

K: Allowing everyone to feel dignified and new empathy for people on the side of the fence that have to reject.

C: Yes.

K: So, thank you for tuning in this week. We’re always humbled and honored that you spend your time with us. We know that your time and attention is a valuable commodity. And we’re glad that you spend it on us and let us benefit from that. We really do truly value every listen.

C: Yes, we do.

K: Talk to you next week or talk to you in a few seconds over on the take two.

C: Bye.

K: Bye.