K: So, lately I’ve been thinking about how we keep our marriage happy.

C: Like… this is something we have talked about off the podcast. 

K: (laughs) Well, because, like, the quarantine – and we’ve been in quarantine for a long time together. And I think what’s working in our favor is that you really are my best friend. And, so, I feel like, “cool, now I get to hang out with my best friend.” Really, I guess – kind of a lot more but not really because I’m still working, and you’re still working, and Rasta’s still working.

C: Yes. 

K: So, I’m really fortunate that we’re all able to work, and that our apartment is big enough that Rasta’s in a different side of the house, and that, when we’re working, we’re all able to be in three separate, distinct locations, so we’re not on top of each other.

C: Yes. We have a horizontal apartment rather than a vertical one.

K: (laughs) We know some people – I feel… like a lot of people are in a one room apartment with someone else.

C: Yeah.

K: And that’s not a lot of space.

C: Well, and when we looked at places for your office, there were some that were vertical, and the real estate agents were like, “you’ll love it being so small horizontally, but there’s space above and below.”

K: Yeah, no. I was like, “nooo.” So, I feel – so I’ve noticed in the past month that there’s been… a slight increase in couples’ counseling. 

C: Mhm.

K: and I feel like the strain and stress of the pandemic, which I’m not going to focus on that a lot, has really impacted people’s marriages in a negative way. And that’s what the APA is saying – the American Psychological Association – and the Japanese Psychological Association is. But I don’t find that those type of outside stressors really impact our relationship. AT least, I don’t think they do. Do you?

C: No, I don’t think they do. I think some outside stressors do, but… close proximity is not one of them. 

K: Yeah. And spending a lot of time together is not one of them.

C: Right. But we started off our relationship by spending a lot of time together.

K: Yeah when we were just friends. 

C: Yeah.

K: And we would spend almost every day together. 

C: Yeah. Because we met at school, we’d see each other at school, we’d hang out after school.

K: Yeah, and we’d hang out on the weekends.

C: Yeah. 

K: So, I’ve always really, really enjoyed looking at your face.

C: Yeah?

K: (laughs) Yeah. You have the best face. I love your face. 

C: Thank you. I love your face, too.

K: Thank you. So, I feel like… for… what I always tell people – and I always tell our son – is that, “don’t date people you don’t like.” Like, don’t date someone based on just sexual and physical attraction. But then I’m a real trampy, and I’m like, “you can just have sex with someone, and that’s all you do together.”

C: Mhm.

K: Like, meet up, have sex, and then separate. 

C: Or just stare at their face.

K: (laughs) 

C: Because you’re like, “don’t focus on the physical. But your face.” 

K: (laughs)

C: I feel like I’m getting mixed messages, here. 

K: So, you know that you’re one of the few people that I even liked that I was – when we started sleeping together, you were the only person out of everyone that I was sleeping with that I liked.

C: Yes.

K: That I actually enjoyed their company. And that was kind of like a staple for me is that I would have sex with people I didn’t like because I find most people are attractive until they open their mouth.

C: Mmm.

K: And you’re the exception to that rule because you’re dead sexy, baby. Like, with your mouth open, closed, whatever because you’re super smart, and I dig that about you.

C: Well, I dig that about you, too. 

K: Thank you. So, I think you didn’t like the people you were sleeping with, either. 

C: It was a very limited number, and I was going through a divorce, so…

K: (laughs)

C: I feel like it was a slightly different situation.

K: But, see, yeah, but the way that number congregated was, you know, interactived shall we say?

(laughter)

C: Yes… it was interactive. It was not static.

K: Well, you were in an open marriage. 

C: Yes.

K: And you were going through a divorce.

C: Yes. 

K: So, it’s not like… you know.

C: Right. Yeah. 

K: That whole thing. It was very “that.” We’ll just leave it at that. So, people that are feeling – so, for us, I’m in quarantine like the most optimistic projections look like until August for me because I’m in quarantine until they develop a standard treatment protocol and increase and improve testing of COVID in Japan. And all of my doctors support me being quarantined and recommend that I be quarantined until them. And, for me, it doesn’t feel – being quarantined does not feel stressful.

C: Yeah.

K: I don’t feel like it’s adding stress. I feel like the biggest outside thing that adds stress to our marriage is my PhD. 

C: I think, at this point, it is. That’s not always been the case, and that fluctuates, but I think, right at this moment, it is. 

K: So, why do you think at this moment it’s impacting us more than usual?

C: I think it’s not necessarily that it’s impacting us more but that other things are impacting us less. 

C: Mmm.

K: I feel like three, four, five, six months ago, we had much different worries.

K: Yeah.

C: We had worries about Rasta’s visa, and then that got – you know, he got a really good result on that, and we had worries about my new job, and then that’s turned out great, so I think there’s a lot of different things that were also on our mind. I think, right now, the only thing that’s kind of fluctuating so rapidly is your dissertation. 

K: Mmm. Yeah. Because we do like sameness.

C: Yes. 

K: And predictability. 

C: Yes.

K: And, right now, my PhD is in a really unpredictable place.

C: Right.

K: Because, as I write each section – because I’ve collected over 250 articles and about fifteen books at this point. And… every time I go into a new section, it’s like, “shit on a shingle, there’s more research to do. There’s another book to buy.”

C: Mhm.

K: And I feel like that hidden cost of PhD – nobody prepares you for it. And the amount of reading that you have to do to answer one tiny question.

C: Yes.

K: Like, “why did they make this decision? And if they don’t agree, why are they still writing together” – is like – was a couple weeks back was like a big question that hit me out of nowhere. And I’m like, “why has nobody written about this” and then I find that, when my anxiety shoots up, I get really spiky and sharp. 

C: Yes.

K: And impatient. And that makes things a little bit difficult because you are very, very delicate. 

C: I am very delicate.

K: You are emotionally delicate.

C: Yes, I am. And I think when we have a bunch of things to worry about… if you’re stuck on something, you move on to something ese that you’re worried about. 

K: Yeah.

C: Because I feel like you, and me too, have a certain amount of time that we spend tending to things that we’re worried about.

K: Yes. 

C: And, so, if you have a lot – a big garden of worries to tend, then you don’t get stuck on any one crop. 

K: Mmm. 

C: And, right, now, the only worry cropped that you have is your PhD.

K: Yeah, and I find that, Rasta moving back home, has made my general anxiety go way down. Because, like, I know where he is, I know what’s he doing. I think he’s safe. I know everybody is safe. And I feel very fortunate for that that I know everybody in my life is safe. 

C: I think not just safe, but not sick. 

K: Yeah. Well… he has lupus and hereditary coproporphyria, too.

C: That’s why I didn’t say healthy. That’s why I’m saying not sick. Not sick with COVID.

K: Not sicker than usual?

C: Yeah. Not sicker than usual. 

K: Yeah.

C: Not sick with COVID.

K: Yeah. So… what do you think is our secret recipe for avoiding conflict because I don’t feel like we have a lot of conflict in our marriage.

C: I don’t feel like we have a lot of conflict, either. I feel like we have some, but it’s quick.

K: Yeah.

C: It’s like, “hey, you’re hurting my feelings.” And then it’s like, “aww, I’m sorry. I wasn’t meaning to.” And then it’s over.

K: I feel like… transitions we have really bad fights. 

C: Mhm.

K: But once we get on the other side of the transition – because I feel like the transition from you not working to – well, you were working at writing your books. 

C: Well, and I was freelancing editing, but that was not taking up a whole lot of time.

K: I feel like the transition from that to you working at your current job, that there was a month where we were fighting a lot. 

C: So, I think one of the ways that we avoid conflict is we’re mostly headed in the same direction, and in times of change, there’s kind of a push pull to see what direction we’re going to head. 

K: Yeah.

C: And I think that’s why – maybe why there’s more conflict in those times. 

K: And I think, too, that I was super stressed out when you were starting your knew job about other things. 

C: Right.

K: And you really needed my attention. And I didn’t give it to you.

C: Right. It wasn’t good timing, but that was when the job came along. 

K: And… something that I have an opinion of that I don’t know whether you agree of. And it might be controversial, and it might make some people mad, but this is my opinion. 

C: I disagree.

K: (laughs) So, everybody who listens to us – all the Musick Notes know that you are autistic and that you prefer to be called autistic, not “a person with autism” because autism is not your girlfriend, not your friend. It’s not someone that you’re hanging out with. You are autistic. 

C: Yes. 

K: And I feel like… because you’re autistic, you need to be the most important person in the room. You need to know that, when you need me, I will be there. End of. Period. Irregardless of what’s going on. What else is going on in my life, you want to know that there will be time for you. 

C: I agree with that. But I also – I don’t know if it’s entirely because I’m autistic because I also feel like I was raised to try to never, ever, ever, ever need anything because I wouldn’t get it.

K: Mhm.

C: And, so, even just admitting that I need something is like, when I’m really, I feel like dire need. 

K: Yeah. You get really anxious if you’re in the state of need.

C: Yeah.

K: And it makes you really angry if I miss it.

C: Right. So, I think that it’s not that I’m like, “I need to be the most important person in the room, so we’re going to have what I want for dinner tonight. So, we’re going to watch the shows that I want.” It’s not an all the time kind of thing.

K: Yeah.

C: It’s, I try to satisfy my needs without involving anybody else. Like, as far as, you know, when I sleep or what I eat or anything like that.

K: Mm. Yeah. 

C: And, so, I try to minimize my demands on others. So, I feel like

K: So, I’ve – but I’ve noticed in clients that I work with who are autistic – they have a need to know that their needs being met is guaranteed in the relationship.

C: Yeah, well, I feel like… when I say something is a need, I really mean it. 

K: Yeah. It’s very literal. And I think that that comes along with autism, too – being very literal.

C: Right.

K: Which that’s not a surprise – it’s not like a groundbreaking – that’s not controversial, that’s written in all of the literature. That’s one thing that all of the literature agrees with.

C: Yeah.

K: I haven’t seen one that are like, “hey autistic people are not literal at all and do not care about semantics at all.”

C: Sometimes, you’re like, “I need a cookie.”

K: (laughs)

C: Right? I like cookies. Sometimes, I want a cookie. 

K: Yeah.

C: Sometimes, I really want a cookie. Or sometimes I’m like, “I think I’m having a cookie because I just can’t stop thinking about it.”

K: (laughs)

C: But I never say, “I need a cookie.” 

K: Yeah. That’s true. And you would never lie to get cookies.

C: Right.

K: (laughs)

C: Because they would taste like lies.

K: Yes, they would. They would be bitter. They would be bitter and filled with lies. So, for me, I feel like you needing to be the most important person in the room when it comes to getting your emotional needs met – in exchange for that, you give me the thing that matters most to me. And that is that I have final say. And I’m in control.

C: Yeah.

K: Because I like my world to be really set. 

C: Yes.

K: And really predictable. And I think that makes us super compatible because you also want that. And you’re like, “so, if you’re in control, you’re going to guarantee that our life is going to be as set as possible?” 

C: Mhm.

K: And I said, “Absolutely.” And you were like, “okay, sign me up.”

C: Oh no, you’re going to make things stable and predictable at a good level. Oh no, what will I do?

K: (laughs) A lot of people don’t like it. A lot of people would hate the predictability of our life. They would find it boring and tiresome, and they would feel trapped and confined. 

C: I was talking with somebody else about this the other day. They were like, “well, hey, if you get bored, here’s this or that.” And I said, “I don’t get bored.”

K: Yeah. 

C: And they were like, “no, no, I remember you being bored.” And I said, “no, I get frustrated.”

K: Yeah.

C: “If I feel stuck. I get bored with certain things, but as a general proposition, I don’t get bored.”

K: Yeah, and I rarely feel bored.

C: Yeah.

K: I often feel frustrated, and I often feel tired and overwhelmed, but I think… by nature of my PhD, I’m rarely bored. 

C: Right.

K: Because I’m so balls to the wall busy. 

C: And this is not a criticism of people who get bored. 

K: I think it’s a matter of time.

C: Yeah, I think it’s time and temperament. Because, growing up, my

K: Time, temperament and how much you like your job. 

C: Yeah. My parents were always, “only boring people get bored” – I don’t think that.

K: Which is asinine. 

C: Yeah. I think very interesting people get bored. I think some people live their life on boredom and on abating their boredom. But I don’t. I tend to find what I’m doing interesting because, if I don’t find it interesting, I stop and do something else.

K: And I think, too, neither one of us has a high need for novelty.

C: No.

K: And, so, I think that people who have a higher need and higher desire for novelty – that those people will tend to get bored more so than people who like constancy and consistency. 

C: Mm.

K: Because, if the everyday being basically the same – like groundhog’s day, that movie just seemed awesome to me. Like, getting up and being able to have all the time to do whatever you wanted.

C: Right? 

K: And he, like, got to learn a language, and time wasn’t moving for him, and he wasn’t aging. And I’m like, “what are you bitching about here, Bill?” I don’t remember the name of the character, but what was – so, when the character just got into it, I was like, “thank you.” 

C: Right?

K: That looks so heavenly to me. I’m like, “that is the best ever.” 

C: Somebody calculated how much time he was supposed to have spent, and it was like 40-something years. It’s like, “so, for 40-something years, you know how your day is going to go?”

K: That would be so awesome. And he had so much agency and autonomy. 

C: Mhm.

K: So, it wasn’t him that stayed the same, it was everything around him.

C: Right.

K: And I’m like, “that would be so awesome.” I don’t know, maybe it’s because of my PhD. I wish that I could just get up and nobody else realized that time had passed.

C: (laughs)

K: I would love that. Like, that would be so freaking awesome. Like, I could just bang this – this thing out. 

C: Well, both of us like what you call hidden time. 

K: Yes. Oh, yes. That is so [lip smacking sounds] tasty. 

C: So, I’m not going to talk about your hidden time because that’s yours. 

K: Yeah. That’s my hidden time.

C: Yeah. 

K: It’s hidden for a reason.

C: But my hidden time is, like, if I go into work an hour early and get things done. 

K: Yeah.

C: Then I can take off a random hour in the middle of the day without telling anybody.

K: Well, I’m going to explain the concept of hidden time.

C: Okay.

K: So, hidden time – the way that we’re using it – is when somebody in your life or in the outside world has an expectation that you will do something by a specific time. And you move everything around in your life so that you’re able to fulfill that before the specific time, and then you hold it until when it’s due. And, so, that gives you hidden time and flexibility because it’s not due – if something is due on the 28th and you finish it on the 25th, you have three days of hidden time if you just keep it to yourself. (laughs)

C: Right.

K: And don’t tell anybody. And, so, I don’t think, like, it’s a mystery to anyone – and in the PhD process, hidden time is built into that. 

C: Yes.

K: Because you’re supposed to continue working while your chair is reviewing your work. And you’re not supposed to give your chair more work to review until they’re done reviewing what you’ve already given them. So, hidden time is built into the PhD process. And, with clients, my availability – I tell honestly when I’m available to see clients, and I say honestly when I’m not available for emails. And that – so, I don’t… what I don’t do is tell everybody exactly what I’m doing during those times. And that gives me hidden time and privacy.

C: Right.

K: And you get hidden time by going into work early. 

C: Yeah. Or, sometimes, by staying a little bit late the day before or…

K: Or working on the weekend.

C: Working on the weekend or whatever. So, I probably still work more than I’m actually paid for.

K: Oh, absolutely.

C: But

K: But you’re an adult.

C: Yeah.

K: You’re an adult on a salary.

C: Yeah. And I like my job, and

K: (laughs) So, for me, I just feel like when you reach a certain level at work, you’re just not going to be paid for all the hours that you work. You’re just not going to. But you’re going to have a really great tax bracket to exist in. So, I think, like, when you move up tax brackets, there’s – for me, I feel like there’s… the more money I make, the less I’m paid for every single hour that I work. 

C: Mmm. Yeah.

K: At least, that’s been my trajectory. 

C: I think you’re a little bit different because you’re self-employed, and when I was doing freelance, it was the same thing. I got paid for every single hour that I was sitting and editing. But that wasn’t the entirety of my work because I also had to do billing and finding work and all of the other kinds of things involved in getting to the point where I’m sitting down to edit.

K: Yeah.

C: And, so, I feel like… I’m working more hours now than when I was editing. 

K: Oh, absolutely.

C: Yeah. But I’m probably working less hours than I was on my last full-time job.

K: Yes, but your last full-time job was structured that way. 

C: Right.

K: I felt.

C: With no hidden time.

K: Yeah. There was absolutely – it was really hard to get hidden time. And I think, towards the end, we were able to get you some hidden time, but it really went against your grain and your ilk. It was just really difficult for you to hold work, you were like, “but it’s done.” And I’m like, “but you don’t understand, there are other things” – because what – the thing with hidden time is that people always expect, at least in my life, people always expected that I do more than I was – than I’m capable of. Everybody gets the same 24 hours, and I’m telling you I do not have the capacity to do this in the time in which you have allotted. And they’re like, “yes you do.” And I’m like, “no, I don’t. I’m telling you I don’t. I know for a factamundos that I know.”

C: I always think about Prefontaine. The runner.

K: Mhm.

C: He was the first one who broke the 4-minute mile – at least, on the record, that we know about.

K: Yeah.

C: But that doesn’t mean that he could run 60 miles in 4 hours. 

K: Right.

C: Because, when you’re working at a certain speed, you can’t keep it up.

K: Yeah. It does get fatigued. The mind, the body, everything gets fatigued.

C: So, and – for me, hidden time was about being allowed to average out my work speed. 

K: Yeah. 

C: Rather than have people know exactly how fast I’m working in a particular moment. My job is really good about not sweating me about that.

K: Yeah.

C: They’re like, “we love the amount of work you produce. We’re very happy with what you do, so whatever you’re doing… feel free to keep on doing it.”

K: Yeah.

C: But I’ve been other places where they’re like, “okay, so we noticed you that did this much in one hour, so that’s what we want you to do every single hour.”

K: Yeah. So, for me, I think that something I do – like, I dress – and I think I’ve probably mentioned this before on the podcast: I do my hair and my clothing, what I could feel comfortable wearing on my worst day physically.

C: yeah.

K: And I just do that. On my worst day, when I feel like I hate my job, I want to close down my business, I don’t want to be a therapist anymore. Because that happens. Compassion fatigue and all that. And… I get up, and I work every day at that level.

C: Mhm.

K: And the same with response of emails because there’s some times when I’m feeling super communicative, and I want to be super responsive and talk to clients, and I’m completely open to that. But I know my personality well enough to know I’m not going to want to do that every single day. So, I set these rules in place so that people can know what to expect from me and can get consistency from me as well. And I think that what makes us work so well together is that we try to be consistent with each other. And, in those times when we have bad months – because we’ve been together over twenty years.

C: yeah.

K: So, there are bad months, and there are times that we’ve been fighting for an entire month – those are rare – but they usually occur in transitions, and I think it’s the way that we fix that afterwards, and the way that we identify and take ownership of our sides of the street. Like, I know that, for me, in the arch of our marriage, it’s been really interesting because, when we first met, I had an anger management problem. And now – and you didn’t – and now that my anger management has improved, the level of your anger management hasn’t quite caught up to mine yet.

C: Yeah. 

K: And that’s something… that’s another part of our secret sauce is that we’re always leapfrogging each other I feel like. Like, one of us will surpass the other one in an arena – like you surpassed me educationally. And you’re like, “okay, now make a plan to catch up.” (laughs)

C: Yeah.

K: You were like, “you need to get your PHD” and I didn’t do it at a time that you were ready for it.

C: Mhm.

K: And I didn’t even let you in on my thinking. So… I do randomly surprise you because I marinate. I’ll take like three months to think about something, and then I’ll come and tell you my decision, and you’re just supposed to accept it. I think that’s one of the challenges of being with me.

C: I think so, but I think that it’s the same concept of hidden time applies. That I tend to look at things on average. Like, today might be a bad day – today’s a good day – but today might be a bad day, but are my days bad on average or is this just a bad moment?

K: Well, and our Musick Notes know it’s all about, hey, more good days than bad.

C: Right.

K: It’s not – it’s always about averages. Always.

C: So, I think if you look at like, was every single day fantastic? No, but that seems exhausting.

K: Yeah. It does. And… if everything’s one-note, how is that fantastic?

C: Mmm.

K: Like, that’s not my definition of fantastic.

C: Yeah.

K: So, something I don’t know – I feel like… I feel like, when we lived in the United States, we had gotten to a point where we were so unhappy in the U.S. that it was bleeding into everything, and it was really damaging our marriage. So, then I came over to Japan a little while by myself, and then I went back to the U.S., and I had a lot of GI surgeries and cancer and a lot of illness. And… that was really hard. Coming back from all of those illnesses.

C: Yeah.

K: It felt like uphill both ways in the snow. So, I feel like our first – I want to say five years – in Japan were just really hard. 

C: Yeah.

K: Really, really hard. And really hard on our marriage.

C: Well, and I had just finished my undergraduate in 2006. 

K: Yeah.

C: And, so, it was like… do I look for a job in the Bay Area that’s going to be 70, 80 hours a week, or do we make this move? And then we made the move, the working conditions here in Japan for people who are newly here – we’ve talked about before – not great. 

K: Yeah.

C: And the company that I was working for was exploitative. And… went bankrupt a few months

K: And I hated our apartment.

C: Yeah. Went bankrupt a few months later. We were living…

K: In a really bad neighborhood.

C: Yeah.

K: Japan has ghettos, you all. Japan has ghettos. And… the first time we moved here, we’ve said it before, we lived in Okazaki. And that wasn’t a ghetto. And then we moved to a nice part of Nagoya. In the Higashiyama area. On the Higashiyama line. And that was really nice. And then we lived in Chikusa in a ghetto. It was a ghetto ghetto. But Japanese ghettos are a trip because I don’t understand the subtlety of what makes something a ghetto and what doesn’t.

C: Right.

K: I can’t… like, I don’t get it. I don’t know. Like, I know that was a ghetto because, like the – I’m not going to name the supermarket, but if you live in Japan you all know there’s like three major supermarket chains, and there’s one that’s super, hella ghetto. Like, the produce is always half-rotten, and you can cut it away, but you’re going to have to cut away some of your rot – some of the rot off the produce. The meat is always, like, you better cook this tonight. 

C: Right.

K: It’s not staying good. And there’s insects in there and everything. So, to me… I now identify that particular grocery store as being ghetto. Like, any – if someone tells me that that’s their grocery store, I think “oh” – I don’t say it to them, but I think in my head – “oh, you live in the ghetto.” (laughs)

C: It’s interesting how… it’s different than in the U.S. – it’s not about prices. 

K: No because the price of the stuff is all the same. 

C: Well, and it’s not even about housing prices because housing prices were not cheap in that area.

K: No.

C: They’re cheaper than where we live now. 

K: Yes, but where we live now is a much nicer neighborhood. And, also, there was more garbage around.

C: Yeah.

K: They clean the streets every couple of days, but there would be more garbage on the streets. 

C: Right.

K: Which still wasn’t a lot by like – if you’re comparing Japan and the U.S., it was nowhere near the same.

C: Yeah, yeah.

K: So… that area, I think, where we lived, really impacted our marriage negatively because we were both so unhappy every time we left the apartment.

C: Right.

K: Like, I really liked the apartment itself, and the layout of the apartment was okay – it didn’t really bother me.

C: Yeah.

K: But the neighborhood – I felt trapped in the house because the neighborhood. I was always getting hit on by guys, and I had one guy try to hit me with his car.

C: Yeah, we’ve talked about this before.

K: Yeah, so that was just like, a really negative experience and really made the neighborhood feel unsafe for me. Haven’t had that experience – yes, I’m knocking on wood you all – haven’t had that experience here.

C: And the sidewalks were slanted.

K: Yes. All of the sidewalks were slanted, and I hated that.

C: Like, not on a hill, but like… you know, one foot is higher than the other when you’re walking.

K: Yeah. Like, they all tilted in or out. 

C: Yeah. And I understand that, for water or whatever, but they were also on a hill.

K: (laughs) Yes, which made it more confusing.

C: So, the water would have gone to the bottom of the hill.

K: Yeah, like, you can flatten this out. And it had tons of fountains, which was confusing as hell for me. Like, why are there so many fountains in this neighborhood? Like… and the fountains were always dirty. They always had cigarette butts in them, and

C: It was like somebody had, like, a Sims thing and was like, “this neighborhood, the rents are low. I’m going to put in a bunch of fountains, so the rents go up.”

K: Yes, totally. Totally. That’s what it was like. So, I feel like, if we can’t have… if we can’t live our life in the way we want to, that it puts stress on our marriage.

C: Yes.

K: And I know that’s a really privileged statement. I know that we’re privileged. You all don’t have to hate and, like, tell me I’m privileged. I know I am.

C: I think that it’s not even privil- I mean, that’s – we are

K: It’s completely privileged to say, “I want to live life on my own terms” and then to be able to do so.

C: No, but I – I agree with you there. But I’m saying that I think, for everybody, if the external life is harder, then it’s harder to – to get along with other people.

K: Yes, I think so. And… so, what is the secret to us getting along? I feel like it’s knowing each other and knowing ourselves – is a big part of it.

C: Yeah, I feel like that. And I feel like it’s different between the two of us. I think, like, I am… way more… prone to forgive and forget than other people are.

K: Yes. And I am way less prone.

C: Yeah.

K: (laughs)

C: And you are way more

K: I’ve been working on developing my forgiveness, you all. That’s my goal in 2020: become more forgiving.

C: But you are way less judgmental than other people.

K: Yeah.

C: You are way more accepting of things that other people are like, “nope, I can’t accept that.”

K: Yeah. I let people be who they are.

C: Yeah.

K: I don’t really care.

C: And, so, I think that, for us, we found the areas of “this really bothers me” and “this doesn’t bother me at all” in a way that meshes so that we’re mostly not bothered by what the other one is doing. 

K: Yeah, I think there’s a lack of spite. 

C: Yeah.

K: Because most of my couples, when I do couples therapy – we’ve talked about this before, sorry if it’s boring you all – I start off with individual sessions. I don’t go straight into “let’s do group sessions” and they’re always like, “but when can we do group sessions?” When you want to stop blaming your partner for everything. That’s when. When – not when, “I want to attack them in front of you and have you validate my attack.”

C: Right.

K: When it’s no longer about scoring points. And some couples

C: When it’s no longer “3, 2, 1, fight.”

K: Yeah. And, so, a lot of couples never get to the place where they’re doing joint sessions. 

C: Mm.

K: Ever. And some couples get their after they’ve done good work. But I rarely, rarely see couples together right from the jump because in my experience of over 25 years of doing this, it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work. If you’re coming in angry with a full head of steam, and you want to do, you know, points tallying – you want to score points you want to win, you want to be petty, you want to be spiteful, you want to be controlling. And you don’t have your partner’s consent for all of that. It’s just going to be a shitshow. 

C: So, maybe that’s part of why we have so little friction because, when you say we have really bad fights, they’re verbal arguments, and “bad fights” means we’re not just… we – we reduce our puzzling and that kind of thing.

K: Yeah. 

C: Like, it’s

K: We still kiss each other goodnight and kiss each other good morning every day.

C: Yeah. It’s uncomfortable, but it’s not violent. 

K: Oh, never, never, never. It’s usually not emotionally violent.

C: Right. But I think that

K: But it’s, “you hurt my feelings, and they hurt for a couple of days.” 

C: Yeah.

K: And, sometimes, every time we go back into the discussion, it still hurts my feelings. 

C: But I’m continually looking at myself to see what I can improve about myself. 

K: Yeah.

C: And I think you’re doing the same thing.

K: Yeah.

C: And, so, when I’m having difficulties, I don’t think, is your job to fix me.

K: Yeah.

C: When I need something, it’s your job to provide it. 

K: (laughs)

C: Which we’ve already talked about. 

K: That’s completely different than fixing you.

C: Right, right. And, so, when I’m having… struggles

K: Like, who was it, Coldplay with Fix You?

C: Yes, Coldplay was Fix You.

K: Yeah, that’s right. Because you can’t be your spouse’s therapist. If someone’s coming in with “I will fix you” no. No. run. 

C: Mhm.

K: Run. They are not the one for you.

C: Okay, look in the dictionary. 

K: (laughs) They think you’re broken.

C: Not even that. Just, like, if you take your dog to the veterinarian to get fixed

K: Mmm. Talking about being spayed and neutered.

C: Yeah, don’t try to fix me.

K: I just think it’s so weird that it’s spayed and neutered. 

C: Yeah.

K: That’s weird. Why is it spayed and neutered?

C: I don’t know. Because English is weird.

K: Ah. You don’t know.

C: I don’t know.

K: Wow.

C: I can just admit that. I do not know.

K: (laughs) I’m going to actually google it after. You know what, though, every time I say I’m going to actually google something, I don’t.

C: Yeah. Because you’re a liar.

K: I am a total liar on that. But, then, we always say that we don’t google because we don’t google during this show.

C: Correct.

K: So, then I’m like, okay. But then afterwards, because then… so, after the show, we record the take two that’s available on Patreon, so check out our Patreon, and those of you that listen to our take two that are subscribed on Patreon, thank you. We appreciate that. We love the love. We appreciate it. Um… so, after we do the main episode, then we do the take two. Which is where we talk about the main episode. And, by then, I’m like – I completely don’t remember what we said.

C: Yeah. Don’t remember, don’t care.

K: Yeah. It’s not significant. But, now, I’m probably going to – this will be like the one time I actually look it up.

C: Look up the etymology of it.

K: Yeah. Like, why is it spayed and neutered? That’s so weird. 

C: Mhm.

K: I know what the difference is. I just don’t know why it’s called that.

C: Mm. Yeah. 

K: Because I don’t think to neuter means to cut. I don’t think neuter means cut.

C: Mhm.

K: I don’t know. You don’t know what the word neuter means? Like, the origins of it?

C: I don’t know the etymology of it, no.

K: Okay. I’m really pressing you hard to come up with, like, just make something up.

C: Neuter and neutral have the same base. 

K: Wow, you’re really just… not wanting to participate in the exercise. (laughs)

C: And so, to neuter is to make something neutral.

K: (laughs) That was a good one. I didn’t think you’d be able to draw them together. I was like, “no, you’re just not participating now because that makes no sense. That is nonsensical.”

C: Mhm.

K: So, basically, if you’re having problems in your relationship; I always advise everybody to ask yourself what you’re doing wrong.

C: Yeah.

K: Because I guarantee that you’re doing something wrong, even if it means that the wrong thing you’re doing is staying in that relationship.

C: Yeah. And, sometimes, that is what you are doing wrong. 

K: Yeah. And it’s really sad for me when that’s the thing that people are doing wrong because I’m really pro-relationship. And I think it comes from us having a really great marriage. I want everybody to have what we have and – or their version of it because I think everybody deserves to be happy. And I don’t like this whole thing that, like, being alone is supposed to be some badge of honor. I’m like, “why? Why is being alone a badge of honor?” Like saying, “I don’t need anybody.” I feel like I can do bad all by myself, but for me to do awesome and amazing, I need a partner. 

C: Mhm.

K: and I don’t feel any – I don’t feel weak or any kind of way about that. 

C: Yeah, no. Synergy.

K: (laughs)

C: Symbiosis. 

K: So, what do you think of the ethos that’s out there that if you’re like, single and seeking, that – I think it goes back to the whole like try-hard culture and all of that. I’m like, screw that man. Like… yes, I am trying hard. Thank you for noticing. I am putting effort into this. No, it is not freaking effortless. Nothing worthwhile in my life has cost me no effort. Even if it’s the effort to get out of bed or turn on the t.v.

C: Yeah. It is a weird thing, and… I think there’s an assumption that everybody is looking if they are single. Which is not true. We know people who are aromantic or whatever and is just not interested in having a partnership with somebody else.

K: Yeah, and that’s different.

C: Yeah. But even in Japanese, there’s the idea that if you’re single, you’re looking. So, in Japanese, there’s “shinguru” which is a marketing thing for single. 

K: Mhm.

C: But the traditional Japanese word is “dokushin” which literally means “person on the hunt.”

K: Yeah.

C: So, like, they just view – if you’re single, you must be on the hunt. And they’re really frustrated, the older Japanese and the Japanese press, are really frustrated with Japanese young people who are like, “actually, I’m not on the hunt. I don’t have my life together, so I’m going to get it before I try and couple up.” 

K: I think that’s fine. I think getting yourself together – because I did a lot of preparation and work on myself. But I wasn’t completely single while I was doing it. I wasn’t having a lot of relationship. I was having a lot of sex. And, so, for me, I don’t feel any shame in the fact in saying that I am a woman that had, at that point in my life, had very specific needs. And I was getting those very specific needs met in a way that made me feel good. And anybody looking at my life – most people who looked at my life were judging me negatively for it. 

C: Mhm.

K: And I’m like, “I’m happy. I’m not lying to anybody. I’m not hurting anybody that hasn’t given me their consent to hurt them. So… it’s really none of your damn business. And, for me, I always encourage people – bet honest about what you want in your life.

C: Yes.

K: Be honest with yourself. Be honest with the people in your life. And I think that leads to… more – higher compatibility in your relationship. So, I think earlier in the podcast, you said it’s because we’re always going in the same direction, and I feel like that changes course, and sometimes we chart out a new course. But we always check in with each other, saying, “hey this is what I want to do”

C: Yes.

K: I’m obsessed with the five-year plan. We always have a one-year, two-year, three-year, four-year, and five-year plan – although we never do the four-year. I always do one, two, three, and five years. And that’s what I’m fixated on. I don’t know why I don’t do the fourth year. 

C: Yeah, I don’t

K: I don’t like the number four at all.

C: I don’t know why you’re so focused on round numbers. Why isn’t it the 27 months and 6 days plan?

K: Yeah, no. Mmnm. And I always have a specific date. Like, I’m not joking around.

C: Yeah. 

K: When I say (laughs) I’m for real. I’m like, “no. I said two years. In one week, it will be two years. End of.” But I don’t think I’ve ever had a four-year plan because I think, at the three-year mark, it turns into a two-year plan, and I reset.

C: Yeah.

K: I feel like I reset every three years.

C: You do reset pretty frequently.

K: Yeah. Because I love the numbers one, three, and five.

C: Yes.

K: I love all those numbers. I don’t care for two so much.

C: Mmm.

K: And I really don’t like four. I don’t like four at all. And I think three is my absolute favorite number.

C: I think it is.

K: Yeah. I – I don’t know, I think I like one, three, and five about the same. I think I use three the most because three is our family. 

C: Mhm.

K: But it’s about to expand. So.

C: Are you pregnant?

K: No, I’m not pregnant. I’m saying whenever Rasta gets married, it will expand.

C: Oh, okay.

K: So, like, in a few years it’ll be expanding. 

C: Okay. I was just wondering if we were going to be wealthy. Because we’ve talked about this before. If you get pregnant

K: (laughs) Okay. Because you’ve had a vasectomy, there should be no more babies happening in this town.

C: Yup.

K: It’s like a ghost town, and I like it. I like that the lot is vacant. (laughs)

C: It is not like a ghost town. It’s just like a town with no empty houses.

K: (laughs) No, wouldn’t it be a town with all empty houses?

C: No.

K: … my house is not full. 

C: Nobody new can move in. 

K: Okay, but my house hasn’t been – so, it’s an empty lot? 

C: It is not an empty lot. 

K: What is it, then?

C: It’s a nice storefront, and what they sell is fun.

(laughter)

K: That’s a secret to our happy marriage is you give the best compliments. (laughs) They’re funny and flattering. And on that happy note, we’ll… head on over to Patreon and check out our Take Two. Bye.

C: Bye.

K: (laughs)